Reasons for disbelief: The top ten reasons I am an atheist

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Many people ask why someone like me, who came from a Christian home, went to a Christian high school and then went on to spend five years in seminary and become a pastor, a missionary, and an evangelist, would turn his back on the God he spent a lifetime worshiping and serving and give up all faith in the supernatural. The answer is very simple, and I’m about to give it. First, however, let me tell you what the reason is not.

Most people, upon hearing my story, decide (regardless of their own spiritual beliefs or religious affiliations) that I must be mad at God. They tell me I just had the wrong religion, or that I just needed to try their particular name-brand. It’s the one thing religious people of all stripes can actually agree on, and it isn’t even true.

I did, in fact, have a rough time in religion. My formative years of trial and tribulation didn’t weaken my faith in the least. In fact, it was because of these troubles that I spent many nights on my knees praying that I might not be like “those other Christians,” and that God would show me the path to becoming his choice servant. It was because of this that I began to take my studies of the Judeo-Christian god very seriously, and it was this in-depth study and reflection that led to my current state of unbelief.

Let me share with you the ten main reasons I found that reflect why I went from a Fundamental, Independent Baptist minister to an ardent Atheist.

Other Religions Exist: I used to believe that only my religion could be right, and that every other religion was wrong. I studied apologetics so I could prove this to anyone I met. Anyone else who claimed to know their religion was true deep in their heart was clearly suffering a Satanic delusion. At the exact same time, I believed a clearly mythological story with blind faith and nothing more to back it up than the fact that I knew deep in my heart that it was true. Then I realized that people fly planes into buildings, run into crowded plazas with bombs strapped to them, and drink poisoned Kool-Aid in the name of their gods. If faith is really the true measure of the veracity of a religion, I was clearly in the wrong church, and should have become a militant Muslim.

Faith is Rewarded to the Same Degree as Disbelief: Once, I would pray daily, often for hours, for every little facet of my life, turning over even the most insignificant little things to the creator of the universe. Sometimes he would answer positively, other times negatively, and other times by seeming to tell me to wait. If I were not praying for what God would want me to pray for, the answer would undoubtedly be no, but if I were asking in faith for something that lined up with God’s will, I would be rewarded. It made me wonder why it was God’s will that certain of my colleagues drove a Mercedes while he wanted me to drive a pale yellow 1988 station wagon.

Then, I came to the realization that if I prayed to God for a given number of things, and I prayed to a rock for that same number of things, the chances are very good that the rock and God would answer roughly the same number of times. Muslims pray to their God, Hindus to theirs, Catholics and Protestants to theirs, Wiccans to theirs . . . and after all is said and done, every God seems to answer in roughly the same proportion . . . unless of course for the 100% rate of failure for such requests as healing an amputee or “moving a mountain.”

God Can’t Be Proven: I used to say to the doubters “You can’t disprove God!” That’s true, but it’s true for one very important reason: you can’t disprove something you don’t have proof of. I can’t disprove leprechauns, or Bloody Mary, or ghosts, or Smurfs, or anything that I don’t first have proof of. You can only disprove something by showing how the proof of it is not valid. My entire life once required belief in something that in no way could be proven to be real. This is like turning around to sit down on a chair when you never actually verified that the chair was there in the first place. The worst part about it is that, instead of a slightly bruised bottom, you come out of it with an entire life wasted trying to sit in a chair that isn’t there.

The God of the Bible Can be Disproved: The God of the Bible (and the Koran, and the Book of Mormon, etc.) already has enough going against him… If he were really the author of the Bible, it would probably be much less full of atrocities, contradictions, plagiarisms and absurdities. Considering the only real knowledge we have on the subject comes either from numinous, unverifiable personal experiences or ancient books of mythology which can be proven to be as I’ve just described them (in a word: nonsense), the God which they describe can thus safely be assumed to be fictional.

Religion is, By Nature, Deluding: I did a bit of math and found out that I had read the entire Bible, all sixty-six books of it, all the way through no less than 26 times from the time I got “saved” to my senior year in seminary. In all this time, I read every single word, and yet I never caught how evil God was, I never saw his bloodthirsty acts and his terrible, tyrannical ways or his childish temper tantrums. I never saw the obvious mistakes and contradictions in the Bible. There were so many things in the Bible I just didn’t see until the day I chose to read it with a wary, discerning eye, and then everything came out.

There is something about religion that makes it a very powerful force, and that something is its insubstantiality. When something doesn’t really exist, you can make any number of arguments in its favor, and to the believing mind answers can come easily because any answer can easily fit. If you ask me to do something and I don’t do it, I can make up an excuse or give you the facts as to why I didn’t, but in the end there is a real reason why I didn’t do it. When you ask God to do something and he does not, it is easy enough to come up with any excuse for him, and since he doesn’t really exist any excuse fits neatly.

I know so many Christians who can’t see how awful the Bible and God really are, and those that can see it make excuses for it. “That’s just the Old Testament!” they say. “We live under the New Testament!” Yes, but your god still killed 70,000 people with pestilence just because their king counted them. He still had bears disembowel forty-two children for making fun of a bald man. He still made a law that said a woman was to be stoned to death if she was raped and didn’t scream loud enough for someone to hear her. He’s the same God.

We don’t release mass murderers from prison because they “turn over a new leaf,” and we wouldn’t suddenly vote back in a violent despot we just deposed because he swore he’d be a little nicer this time around. We shouldn’t worship a monster because he offers us salvation from a pit of fire he himself is threatening us with.

Science is Obviously Better: Science, it has been pointed out, is not perfect and doesn’t have all the answers. However, it does have a method for obtaining answers, whereas religion simply claims answers without having ever done any of the work to get there. Science starts with the idea that we do not know something and then tries to figure it out. Religion starts with the arrogant assumption that we know God exists and therefore must base all our knowledge on that idea.

Once again, religion causes a delusion which stands in the way of readily-available facts and steps around the intellect. This delusion was so strong in me that despite my deep-seated love of science I accepted the pseudo-science of men like Kent Hovind (I even attended one of his lectures in high school), Duane Gish, and Ken Ham without bothering to seek out the truth. As soon as I chose to open my eyes, it became clear to me that the only reason I believed in Creationism was because that’s what I wanted to believe in, and the only reason I didn’t believe in Evolution was because I chose not to see all the available evidence.

The Origins of All Religions are Clear: The first man to invent religion obviously looked up at the sky and said, “I have no idea how all this got here. I made this hut, and this fire, and this wagon, and I tamed this wild dog, and so whatever made the sky must be something very similar to me, only much more powerful.” Obviously. God was made in man’s image, not the other way around. He was a creation of humanity from when we couldn’t figure out any better explanation for the difficult questions of existence. When I was less educated and was inundated on every side with religious “science,” I believed that the only answers were in God. When I started to see answers to these “unanswered” questions revealed with ease and the evidence for true science piling up while the explanations offered by religion withered away, it became obvious that humanity had surpassed its need for these easy answers and their remaining vestiges were holding back our species.

There’s No Difference: Religion and a Relationship with God are just jargon for the exact same thing. When I was a Christian, I used to use the phrase “Some people have a religion, but what I have is a relationship with Jesus Christ.” I also used to throw around the words “Head Knowledge and Heart Knowledge” quite a bit. But in reality, it’s all just fancy ways of saying the same thing: having an emotional, spiritual experience that can’t be quantified logically. It’s faith, either way… it’s believing in something that isn’t real. Some people just get arrogant about it and think that only they have the right answer, and then stupid phrases like the ones above get formed.

Personally, since I’ve become an atheist, I’ve heard this a ridiculous number of times directed back at me. My religion was just the wrong flavor, it all boils down to, and I should have forsaken religion and instead seek out the true power of a relationship with Christ. This is rather upsetting to me, because these people don’t know me, and they don’t know the sleepless nights I spent praying that God would use me in a powerful way. They never saw how I wept over “lost souls.” They never listened to my preaching, which I swore didn’t come from me as I was always terrified right before I stepped up to the pulpit and became strong as the words seemed to flow from the Holy Spirit. These people don’t know that I was exactly like them, and the only difference between us is that I dared to question my faith.

Religion is Destructive: Religion creates rifts and divisions in the world. It causes backwards-thinking and halts medical, scientific, and societal progress. It encourages people to be content rather than try to better themselves, and to trust in an invisible friend rather than strive to succeed. It takes away any joy that we might have in our own successes and instead throws them at the feet of an invisible being that had nothing to do with it. It makes people sit idly by and pray rather than stand up and do something themselves. It locks young people in and does everything it can to ensure that they will never even have the opportunity to look in any other direction. This cannot be the will of any supreme being, unless it is stupid or evil.

Christians Don’t Really Get Persecuted: One of the halls in my dormitory was named after a missionary who died a martyr’s death in Romania. The truth of the matter was that he fell asleep at the wheel and drove into a tree. I used to put on a play in my college drama team about the missionaries to the Auca Indians who were murdered for sharing the Gospel, and then found out they knew they were in danger because the Aucas killed any outsiders who entered their village. I also used to do a play about the missionaries who were martyred with the China Inland Mission during the Boxer Rebellion, and then I found out that the Chinese were persecuting and killing Christian missionaries because they were persecuting and killing ANYONE who was a threat to their national cultural heritage (and the Christians were doing a great job trying to make sure the Chinese became just like the White Devil).

The truth of the matter is that Christians get EXACTLY what they want, and they get it because they keep saying that they are a persecuted minority who don’t get anything that they want. The truth is that they are one of the most powerful groups in the world, especially in America, and the most powerful political party in the United States is nothing more than their soap box.

“OH NO!” they say, “people are trying to get prayer taken out of schools! People are trying to get the Ten Commandments out of courthouses! People are trying to get the Bible and Creationism out of the classroom! We are SO PERSECUTED!” The truth of the matter is that a few (and I mean a VERY FEW) people of good conscience in this country who understand the precepts of separation under which the country was founded know that those things don’t belong there, and are fighting to get them removed. It’s us, the nonbelievers, who are having the hard time, it’s us who are persecuted, it’s us who are the minority.

When you go to try to get a new job, and someone says “He’s a good, Christian man,” you have a much better chance of getting the job than when they say “He’s an atheist” about me. When parents hear an atheist is dating their daughter, it’s like they just heard it was a Satanist. You try closing a big deal when your clients find out you don’t believe in God. Any Christian who says he is persecuted is simply repeating back rhetoric he’s heard from his pastor, unless he’s a missionary, in which case he’s most likely being persecuted because he showed up on someone’s doorstep and told them that everything they know is wrong and they need to be more like him in order to be accepted by God.

Evil Exists in the World: My favorite argument for the nonexistence of God comes from Epicurus: “Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able? Then he is not omnipotent. Is he able, but not willing? Then he is malevolent. Is he both able and willing? Then whence cometh evil? Is he neither able nor willing? Then why call him God?”

I’ve heard so many people say “God allows us to have free will. If we do evil with the gift of free will, it isn’t God’s fault, but our own.” That makes me want to do evil to the people who say worthless, thoughtless garbage like that. Is it really a little girl’s free will to be kidnapped, molested, raped, tortured, murdered, and left on the side of the road in a plastic bag? Is it really a woman’s free will to choose a man because he seems to be a good Christian only to find out that his spirituality has caused him to repress perversions that lead to his arrest for molesting children? Is it the free will of all those precious children who die of leukemia, or AIDS, or SIDS, or who are born into the world handicapped or diseased at no fault of their own? Whose free will was that?

Or was it just God’s will, because somewhere somebody had a lesson to learn from a little boy being born without hands and feet, or a little girl being born in a country where they practice clitoral disfigurement?

I once desired to be God’s primary servant, and now I don’t believe in him at all. All it took was for me to choose to open my eyes and critically examine my beliefs. I know that argument and debate rarely does any good, because both sides often start out set in their ways and firm in the idea that they cannot be wrong, with the sole interest of changing their counterpart’s mind rather than learning something new for themselves. The solution to this is to question one’s own beliefs, one’s own safety zone, with a critical, apprehending eye. I set out to find God, and found that he wasn’t there. I contest that anyone who chooses to seek truth on their own, by questioning their own deep-seated beliefs like I did, will inevitably find that they may not be as true as they once thought.

…Unless, of course, they choose not to see it.

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Reasons for disbelief: The top ten reasons I am an atheist — 403 Comments

  1. You hit many good points in this essay. I will bookmark this for future reference when getting into my numerous (respectful) debates with theists. After reading Bart Ehrman, I was not surprised to read that (at least in part) going to seminary opened your eyes. There is almost no way to read the bible with that attention to detail and not come away seriously questioning its provenance.

    • It’s interesting that you went to seminary and believe that God actually wrote the bible. Also, the translation from Hebrew to English can cause many problems with exact translations.

      • Also, you claim to be a happy atheist, but you seem very unhappy by the way you write. I wish somebody would’ve loved you the way GOD loves you. Then you would have been truly saved. I know you are missing something in your life, don’t turn away from somebody who loves you.

    • Why are you happy to be an atheist? I can see how it would be satisfying to believe that you have the truth and don't have to worry about the "restrictions" or anything else that religions brings, but I just feel like believing that death really is the end of everything would be depressing and miserable. No matter what was accomplished in life, no matter how "meaningful" it was, it doesnt matter in the end because we die and its over. So could you help me understand where youre coming from when you say "Im happy to be an atheist"?

        • I agree with that. But how does believing that there isn't an afterlife make you happy? Regardless of which one I don't understand how an atheist could be happy about that

          • Well, it's kind of a depressing thought sometimes. But that's just the ego talking, really. Billions of people before me died, and many more born after me – who don't even exist yet – will do the same. Why should I be different? It is the natural order of things, at least as far as we know. If anything, it gives me more determination to live this life better, as it is the only one I have.

          • If I do not place all my faith in something without facts to back it up then I leave myself open to possibilities that I never would have considered. Life is a wonder. Faith, especially blind faith, to me is a roadblock to all other possibilities.

          • I don´t beliefe in an afterlife, I am happy and an atheist. I don´t beliefe in afterlife but I belief in science, i.e., that no energy gets lost, i.e. I belief that we still exist after our organic matter died, we still exist just not in the way we used to.

          • You are right just because we don't believe there is an afterlife doesn't make it so. Just because you believe there is an afterlife doesn't make it so. Read your bible and decide for yourself wether or not you believe this book supposedly written about god and his son and what happened in the past. Think about what it teaches and decide for yourself if this is really what you believe to be true? Do you like the way these beliefs affect the way you treat your fellow humans? Do you treat them with compassion and search for the whole truth in all things not just the biblical truth? Do you remember that all people do not believe what you believe and that just as you have the right to your beliefs do you remember that they have the right to theirs?

      • Why NOT be a happy atheist? I don’t need to believe in an afterlife, or in a god to be happy. I am happy knowing that I’m not a fool to believe in a fairytale, and I’m happy knowing that I am not wasting my life away worshiping that fairytale. I go about my daily life loving my family and friends, and enjoying life as it comes. Since time flies by so fast, I hold onto each moment and cherish the time I have here. You don’t need a god to be happy in life.

        • i think we get your point, but it appears you guys are beating around the bush. Just answer the question realistically, and not by just insulting me or diverting the comment… I await your response

          • The best way to be happy and be an athiest, if you lack a belief in an afterlife, is to live completely in the moment and just not dwell on death or think about it.

            Personally I find that hard, so (as a Zen Buddhist) I choose to believe in rebith/reincarnation. However it’s one of the few belief’s in Buddhism that has no real observational backing. In other words, most of the belief’s in Zen Buddhism can be determined to be true by direct personal observation and experience. Rebirth (after death) is not one of them, so I know I could be 100% wrong and that’s ok, it doesn’t change the rest of the important things about my belief in Buddhism.

            But truly, if you can live really in the present moment, then you would not think about death. Your mind would be too focused on looking at these words on your computer screen, listening to the sounds in the room you are currently in, feeling your body in it’s chair or wherever it’s seated, smelling the scents of the room you are in, etc. The present moment would fill your mind completely. Actually it’s the most amazing thing, even though it doesn’t sound like it is.

            But even to be present to a lesser degree, in a way that most people who don’t meditate experience, you will not worry about death. That’s how atheists who do not believe in an afterlife do it. They live in the moment, and truly there can be no greater gift, nothing more amazing than right here. I wish everyone could experience it.

      • I am a happy atheist who does not believe in an afterlife. It isn’t depressing in the least! Every moment you have now should be cherished. Every moment must be lived fully. Death is the end, which will always be the end. The time you have before the end, well, better be great. Make the most of your life, you only have one.

        These are words to live by. You only have one. Make the most of it.

        I want to succeed in life, for my children, because my children are my afterlife. How will they remember me?

  2. A few verses for everyone to read. This is refuring to things that will happen in the end times. I am praying for you, Gordan Douglas.

    1 Timothy 4

    1 The Spirit clearly says that in later times some will abandon the faith and follow deceiving spirits and doctrines of demons. 2 Such teachings come through hypocritical liars, whose consciences have been seared as with a hot iron. 3 They forbid people to marry and order them to abstain from certain foods, which God created to be received with thanksgiving by those who believe and who know the truth.

    II Timothy 3:1-5,7

    "But realize this, that in the last days difficult times will come. For men will be lovers of self, lovers of money, boastful, arrogant, disobedient to their parents, ungrateful, unholy, unloving, unforgiving, malicious gossips, without self-control, brutal, haters of good, treacherous, reckless, conceited, lovers of pleasure rather than lovers of god; holding to a form of godliness, although they have denied its power; always learning and never able to come to the knowledge of the truth."

    • Why can you not give your opinion rather than spouting bible verses. There are none so blind as the willfully ignorant. Truly depressing!

      • The wilfully ignorant?
        Jerry has had his eyes opened to the truth that Jesus Christ is our Lord and Saviour, whereas you're wilfully ignoring it.

        I really encourage you to buy a Bible if you don't own one and read it, or pray to God because he's omnipresent – he's always with you, witnesses everything you do each day, understands your innermost thoughts. You can never escape him because his love surrounds you at all times, even when if you don't know it. :) xx

        • By all means, everyone should read the Bible. Nothing leads one to atheism more efficiently than reading of the moral degeneracy of the "king of kings"…

          • Interesting comment about Jesus. Most people I have read have nothing against Jesus. What moral degeneracy are you talking about? Loving your enemies? Giving your life for a friend’s? Sharing what you have with those who don’t?

        • I find it most depressing that someone can read a personal account of a PASTOR becoming an atheist, and have nothing intelligent to say but, "you did it wrong," or post bible passages. This is exactly the trash Gordon spoke about.

          • You know there are many personal accounts of ATHEISTS becoming Christians too.

        • Jesus never even existed. It's the people that still believe that lie that are willfully ignorant. You cannot produce one bit of evidence that your god exists or the any jesus existed, either.

          Consider this:

          There is not one contemporary account of any jesus.  Isn’t it strange that the Romans, who kept such good records otherwise, made no mention of any jesus?

          Jesus is someone who was supposed to have had great effect socially, politically, religiously, and performed several miracles.  Then there was the very public trial and execution.  But not one word, either officially, or in surviving private correspondence has appeared.

          Then, look up Horus, Krishna. Attis, and Mithra/ Learn from where the jesus myth was stolen. Christianity was founded upon lies, has been lying since then and continues to attract liars, fools, and hypocrites.

          • Wow so what are you just dumb even an atheist knows Jesus existed there was records from the Romans what did the whole empire just play a joke on history and pretend there was a guy called Jesus you moron I find it hard to believe you read the bible or any form of a history book your arguments are such crap it’s easy for any athiest to sit there and ask for proof it’s the easy way out when we ask for proof that we evolved from cells to monkeys to humans you guy come up with such crap arguments it’s just sad and you all act like your such so smart and opeinded when your close minded that you won’t let anybody regardless of religious background talk to you guys because your just scared of being judged for your religion and don’t give me this crap that you tried to be cristians you guys just propably didn’t like waking up in the morning to go to church or something didn’t go your way and now you pout looking for something to blame im not a millionaire I’ve lost a lot that I’ve loved but I dont blame anybody especially not god and if you can’t feel a sort of loneliness then I pray for you don’t know why because you upgraded poop throwing apes don’t even understand what it means for someone miles away to pray for a stranger to not go to hell and go to a paradise instead and even if you guys whind up being right well good for you were just all dead monkeys but if I’m right sucks to be you but you knew the risks so sorry

          • Could you point the way to those Roman records?

            Because, you see, no archaeologist has ever seen them. Maybe you have special access.

          • I would just like to say that the person calling someone else “dumb” (Spallish) doesn’t know how to use punctuation.

        • It is by reading the bible I cam to be atheist. I suggest that you read the bible from an objective standpoint. Pretend you had never heard of it and know nothing about any religion.

          There is not god, never has been and I directly challenge you to provide any evidence of one. Until you do, there is nothing to disprove. If you do, I'll be happy to show where it is all myths and lies. Religion does nothing but permit one small group of people to control the thoughts, actions, and speech of a larger group.

        • Issy that is not truth that is faith. Truth is something that can be proven. What Jerry has given us are bible verses that do not describe me or any other person I know that has been labeled and atheist. Jerry has been speaking through his retelling of scriptures of people who abandon the christian faith to follow other religions. I do not. People who enforce their own beliefs on others. I do not. People who tell lies and deceive for gain. I do not.

          I have read the bible, I even studied it for years. I do not believe it is the word of a god but the word of men. If there is a god he can come discuss it with me.

      • The reason why he gives bible verses is because they go along with his opinion. His belief. Plus, the bible explains everything.

        • The Bible explains everything?

          You quite so sure you want to stick to that statement?

          Because I’m quite sure I can come up with things that the Bible doesn’t explain.

          Like dinosaurs.

    • Gordon Douglas-sad. You get mad when we talk about free will, but we're right. No, it's not free will for the girl to get raped or whatever you said. The MAN who did it to her used free will. HE took advantage of HERS. Free will is simply a choice. Choose to do wrong or right. Period. No, Christians are not one of the most powerful groups in the world, we are just one of the largest religions. Yeah it's sad when prayer, even spanking and all of that was taken out of schools. Now teens are doing all kinds of violent crimes in the school. Not so back then. It shows lack of common sense if you believe in that evolution mess. If evolution is true, why aren't the monkeys in the zoo evolving? Why aren't us humans evolving? Why aren't the sharks turning into some new type of animal? Science is not better. Science says bees SHOULDN'T be able to fly. They're flying.

      • So, you don't think humans are evolving ?
        You, my dear as a practising religious nut are not evolving. Leave the progress to the atheists eh ?
        Bible bashers scare the hell outta me

      • So much nonsense, so many lies, so little time.

        Science does not say that bees shouldn't be able to fly. You either have an extremely poor understanding of what science does say, or you're quite comfortable lying, but either way you're wrong. What science says is that bees have what is (by comparison to other flying animals) an INEFFICIENT method of doing so – it does not say that they can't fly. If you can't get such basic facts right, Candace, then what makes you think you have a sound grasp on what you claim are the answers to eternal life?

        As for monkeys not evolving in zoos, that shows yet another aspect of your ignorance or your comfort with lies. Evolution does NOT say that humans came from monkeys (as you are claiming), but that humans and monkeys came from a common ancestor. Think of it as your family ultimately originating in say England, but then one branch emigrated to India and the other branch emigrated to America, with the remainder of the original group being wiped out through a war (for example). It's much the same with humans and monkeys, and the evidence is considerable and overwhelming. One might ask where your own verifiable evidence is…oh, that's right, you haven't got any…OH SNAP!

        I could keep going, but just those two points along have probably got your brain in a spin. Be calm, take your time, do some HONEST research, and then THINK for a while. It's not that hard, really.

      • “If evolution is true, why aren’t the monkeys in the zoo evolving?” This is your argument is what is sad. You do not understand the what evolving is to even use that as a statement for your stance. Evolution is not an instance process. It is very slight random changes that can make one more or less able to thrive in their current environment. Before you bash the concept of it at least try to show a minimum of understanding of the subject. You reference the Bees. Science is an ongoing process to understand the things around us. We don’t understand why a bee can fly when looking at the ration of mass to wing area. Science is the continuing pursuit of understanding. Just because it is not understood right now means it never will. It is not about the answer but the drive to understand it. To have faith is to believe on something without understanding it. This is why there is such a polarized opinion over the idea of God. One side is not interested in proof and one is. It makes it difficult to have common ground when views are based on these ideas. I was born and raised Methodist and left the church at 24 because I asked questions that could not be answered. I am not trying to tear down anyone’s belief but I did not feel the path I was on was providing me with what I was wanting. I am sure I am not the only one out here who believes that we can agree to disagree. If you believe and have no need to ask questions than good for you but this does not give you free license to speak down to those who do not see things your way. The same is true on both sides of the issue. Lets face it .. If you believe in heaven and hell and I don’t just means you will go and I will not. Not like you are going to know or see me. If you believe in heaven and it does not exist you will be dead and not know. In the end .. we can all agree to disagree.

    • Yes Jerry but anyone inventing a religion will know that in time some will turn away it is just human nature and the people who wrote the bible knew this. That does not mean that we will follow demons and deceiving spirits only that the bible tells you that we will to keep you from questioning your belief.

    • If you believe that nonsense from the babble, you are seriously mentally deficient. Can't you comprehend that it is nothing but a collection of badly translated, politically edited myths and lies? True there are some references to known historical events. That doesn't make the rest of it true. Here's a modern-day example of how it uses some truths to conceal lies.

      On the 11th of September, 2001, two commercial aircraft flew into the twin towers of the World Trade Center in New York City, killing thousands.

      Some people believe that this was an act of terrorism by an Islamic fundamentalist organization.

      It was really the power of my god directing those planes to warn the people of the USA and the world to abandon their wicked ways and praise the only true god.

      The first sentence is unquestionable historic fact. The last sentence is a delusional lie but is impossible to prove to be false. The “truth” of all “holy books” is based upon this same technique.

    • I might be one of them. It is because of a Christian like you who are judgemental, Christian who betrays christian friends for their own gain, christians who used their faith to fool people, christians who uses grace to cover up their premarital sex, drunkeness. There are no more real christians in these world everyone are hypocrite trying to hide from their religion or so called christianity. Christians who uses forgiveness wrongfully. Yes, I prayed to God for almost two years non stop, but he did not listen to me. I was being set up but the one true God abandon me. My reputation is ruin and no one wants to believe me. I will tell you right now that I know how to be a real christian more than you do but you know what my belief is being tarnish and ruined because of Christians.

    • 1 Timothy 2:11-12
      11 Let the women learn in silence with all subjection.
      12 But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence.

      I hope your mother never scolded you after you came of age. I hope your daughter or wife never asked a question in school. Oh, and I really hope their teacher (a profession traditionally done by women in this “Christian” country) was NOT a woman!

      See, we can quote specific passages, too. From the same book.

      • Unfortunately, you are quoting it out of context without understanding what it means.

        This is a reference specifically to women talking and/or teaching in church. That is all.

        You weaken your argument when you cherry-pick verses without understanding their meaning.

  3. But what happened in your life to trigger all these realizations? There must have been some head-butting or falling out of friend ships or tragedy.

    • In my experience, there doesn't have to have been a head-butting or falling out or tragedy. A lot of believers want to think there is, because then it makes it easier to explain in a way they are comfortable with. "Oh, his brother died and he left the church," or "He and the pastor argued and then he left the church." Gives a convenient reason. But what usually seems to happen when someone goes from devout to atheist is that they start to notice small things that don't make sense, or seem not to jibe with the claims about god/religion. And then more show up. And more. Eventually, they start questioning. Not just asking for rote answers, but diving deep into the history, the theology, and the claims. Once you have one of those, "this can't be right!" moments, you look at something your church claims, your god did, or you've been taught all your life, match it against what you're supposed to live like, "Love your neighbors" and see that God isn't obeying his own laws, or the claim made is totally false, provably false. And then the house of cards falls down, the blinders come off. And for the first time in your life you really take a look at your religion, holding up your core value against what the religion claims, and your god is supposed to be. And the man-made nature of god shines through clearly. Once you can see god's warts, it's all over.

    • Just as Bob says, it wasn't any of the negative experiences I had in religion that led to my giving it up. I had a rough time in Christian school and later in seminary, my father died when I was seventeen… I went through a lot, but all of it only strengthened my faith and my resolve. I was sure that everything that happened did so because God was leading me toward becoming his prized servant. I wanted to make sure that all the things I'd gone through had not been in vain, and that the lessons God was trying to teach me wouldn't have been wasted. I wholly gave my life to God because of the tragedies I had experienced. It was having given my life to him and deciding to spend every moment of my life trying to become a better Christian that I came upon my first little twinges of doubt. I tried to rationalize them but found that there was no excuse, and those little discrepancies weren't so little, and neither were they alone. Either God was evil, impotent, idiotic, or fictional. As I continued to study I found that the truth was that he was fictional.

      Bob's right: a lot of Christians try to rationalize me out of the picture so it's easier for them to hold on to their beliefs if I was never really a good Christian, but being a good Christian is exactly what led to my anathematization.

    • As someone who became an Atheist even with 12 years of religious school and a PhD theologian for a father… it wasn't some "trigger" it was a slow slog. My certainty in all things was naturally susceptible to reason. I was always very interested in science and learning but I had constructed a wall of Fear Uncertainty and Doubt: "Nobody can really know, so why not God?". I had also filled in a lot of controversy with "the sanctioned truth" which at its surface seemed to adequately resolve disagreements between science and religion. But then as I randomly did research into different areas I would realize that the 'sanctioned' truth was quite often scientifically speaking lousy. This didn't diminish my faith though since I just viewed the purveyors of this bad research as being too narrow minded to see that Science and Religion can co-exist. "Science answers the what and Religion answers the Why".

      It was the FUD though that was the last to go. I became a full blown Old Earth Evolutionary Christian. "Is there a God? I can't say for certain but I would like to think so." That quickly moved into strong agnosticism "I can't disprove God, I don't know if he exists, but the story is nice." However as Gordon said in his essay–once you start re-reading the stories without blinders on and pre-conceived notions you see things you never saw before. "Wait, did God just command the Israelites to kill women and children? How did I not notice this before?!" Suddenly the nice happy book that I once read was riddled with heinous immoral orders sanctioned by God.

      So perhaps then I could be a Deist or Strong Agnostic… but once you start openly questioning you just gain momentum. The more free of pre-conceived dogma you get the more things you notice and the less perfect everything becomes. What really brought me around though to Atheism was determinism. I knew long ago I couldn't be a young earth creationist–even as a Christian I saw it as just outright terrible science. But as an Atheist I can see clearly that Evolution and God are completely incompatible. Yes, it's logically feasible that there is a God and that he used Evolution–but only a really terrible God would.

      Yes the lungs are a marvel. But the fact that we need them is evidence that we weren't designed. Creationists point to proof of a divine creator in the complexity and intricacy of our bodies–but ignore the far vaster design flaws. If we are the product of a designer, we're the product of a bad designer. We're fundamentally poorly designed. When you're designing a system to last you build in redundancy, you build in backups, you build in easy duplicability.

      If I put a bag over my head for 20 minutes I will die and probably no amount of intervention will ever resuscitate me. If my laptop's battery dies… I just plug it back in and everything is exactly as I left it. My Laptop's engineer designed a better system than God. Did God strip out all of the Good parts after Adam and Eve? Did Satan? If Satan is responsible for our current Air Breathing, Food Eating, Single brained, non-backupable state of existence then he is more responsible for our humanity than God and he should be acknowledged as our 'creator'. No, in order for Christianity to work our design must be mostly God's. And by and large we show the signs of being designed by a 3 year old.

      So maybe I should listen to my past self. "Maybe there is a God, I can't disprove it." But I can prove that if I am wrong and there is a God… God is an idiot. The thumb print of his stupidity is on just about everything in the universe.

    • There doesn't have to be a precipitating event, that's a very common misconception. I made the transition from devout Christian to atheist slowly over the course of many years. It started in college, where I would run into some academic lesson that seemingly contradicted my Biblical teachings. I would sit down and sincerely pray and think about the issue and would come to one of three conclusions: 1) My Biblical teaching was correct, 2) My academic teaching was correct, 3) The Biblical and Academic teachings weren't mutually exclusive and I could hold both of them at the same time.

      Usually I ended up with #2 or #3 and so I would replace _just_ that one tiny little sliver of my beliefs. Do that again and again… over the course of years and each of those little slivers adds up and suddenly you look back and realize that you can't be classified as a Christian anymore… or even a Theist….

    • That is a very common, but very non-sensical assumption. Can't someone just get intellectually honest with one's beliefs and decide to see things with an objective mind? Are you saying that human beings CAN'T do that, unless there is a traumatic experience to trigger it?

      In reality, few people come to their atheism that way; and those who do usually don't stay atheist for very long. In the majority of cases, you'll find that atheists have thought very hard about their belief in God, and found that it just doesn't hang together logically. A great many atheists were raised in a religious household and decided, after much inner struggle, that they just couldn't continue to take their faith seriously. A few were brought up in atheist households and taught to think about the world and question conventional wisdom.

      Ironically, many evangelists use their own stories of traumatic events as a way of convincing people to find religion. Often you will hear stories of how a person had "hit rock bottom", was perpetually drunk and unemployed and had no hope for the future, and that's when they found the Lord. While they dismiss us by saying that we must have become atheists for dramatic emotional reasons, they use THAT same technique to recruit new parishioners.

  4. I too was raised Christian, went to a Christian junior high and high school. Almost went to a Christian college but thank goodness I didn't. I always doubted and slowly during my college years came to the realizatin that god doesn't exist. I'm much happier now.

  5. What a load of clap trap! On the final day, one of us will be right and one of us wrong. Do you really want to take that chance? The Lord sent us the user's manual (the Bible) and his Son to show us the way. That is sufficient for me.

    • They figured out the answer to Pascal's Wager a long time ago, and that answer was "Pascal's Wager is stupid." What if there is a God, but he wanted us to use the intellect he gifted us with rather than blind faith? I'm sorry, but your life is wasted and neither of us will ever stand before anyone.

      I used to use the argument "God said it, I believe it, that settles it." I'll be the first to admit that I was stupid for ever letting something that ridiculous cross my lips. How can you not see that just saying "Okay, fine, I believe it" and putting your entire life in the hands of someone that most likely doesn't even exist is foolish? Have you ever bothered to investigate the truth behind the claims of the Bible? Is it REALLY the word of God? Does God really exist, or did a historical Jesus ever exist? You may have read why Christians believe this, but have you ever read why nonbelievers don't, and satisfactorily answered their questions for yourself?

    • So after reading this guys entire article about why he is an atheist, your argument is, "do you really want to take that chance?" So you believe in your god because of fear?

    • Um, I think you missed the part where the author talks about the fact that "Other Religions Exist". I'm sure you read the whole article before commenting, so I'm a little surprised you missed it. Embarrassingly for you, it was actually his first point. Better luck next time, I guess.

      • This reminds me of an old science joke I heard. A Professor in a chemistry class was discussing endothermic and exothermic reactions. He posed the following question for a homework report:

        Is Hell exothermic or endothermic? Support your answer.

        Most of the students gave a canned type of answer using Boyles Law in one variation or another. One student, however, gave a rather different approach in his proof.

        Is Hell Exothermic or Endothermic? In order to answer this question, we must first determine the rates at which souls are entering hell. Given the fact that there are multiple religions which state that you will ‘go to hell’ if you are not a member of their religion, and given that one cannot under normal circumstances belong to more than one of said religions at a time, we can safely assume that all people and thus all souls are going to hell. With birth and death rates as we are, we can properly approximate the rate at which souls are entering hell with an exponential growth curve. Using Boyles Law, we have two possibilities:

        1) If Hell expands at a rate less than that at which souls enter hell, then the temperature and pressure in hell will rise until All Hell Breaks Loose.

        2) If Hell expands at a rate greater than that at which souls enter hell, then the temperature and pressure in hell will drop until Hell Freezes Over.

        So which is it? If we accept the postulate given to me by Miss Reece Obannion, that ‘it will be a cold day in hell before I sleep with you’, and given the fact that I have not yet succeeded in having sexual relations with her, then two(2) cannot be true, and thus, hell is exothermic.

        While it may be a bit funny, it does point out a rather touchy problem – that as you point out from the article Canucklehead, there are many different religions, and that a not insignificant number of them deem that if you don’t follow their ‘version’ you will go to ‘hell’. I wonder Diogenes 2, if this poses a problem?

    • What about all the other Users manuals:
      The Torah?
      The Koran?
      The Vedas?
      The Tripitaka?
      The Granth?
      The Book of Tao?
      The book of Morman?
      The Eddas?
      The book of coming fourth by day?
      The book of the Law?
      The Secret Doctrine?

      Every one of them claims to tell the ultimate truth, and they are all different.

    • What makes you so sure that, on the final day, you won't be standing face-to-face with Allah? Or Yaweh, but of the Old Testament, and Jesus turned out to be fake? Or perhaps Joseph Smith was right instead. Or hell, what if you're face-to-face with Ahura Mazda? Then just about everyone is wrong.
      You're presenting a false dichotomy here: "One of us is right, and one of us is wrong". You could both be wrong as well.
      (Although personally, I'm of the believe that we'll end up meeting His Noodliness instead)

    • i'm very happy to take that chance, thanks. because i'm pretty certain that all-knowing god, if he turns out to exist, isn't made in the image of some angry punishing drunkard illiterate. what might have seemed pretty cool hundreds of years ago is now what we call a sad wanker. this modern perception of violent bullies is really ruining good religions everywhere. and the Lord knows, in his wisdom, that every proselytizer who approached me was manifestly ignorant in logic, history and text criticism. i can hardly be expected to follow fools any more than you could be expected to take up hare krishna and dance around the streets, even though my opinion is apparently wildly mistaken. and … by taking that chance, i get to live my life instead of wasting it in a competition of toady grovelling

    • How amazingly ignorant that you would use something as often disproved as Pascal's wager. If your god id all-powerful and all knowing, wouldn't he know that someone is just pretending "just in case"? Wouldn't he also know if someone had been a good person whatever their disbelief in him? If he can do neither of these and relies solely upon deceit and hypocrisy to evaluate a person's worth, that's certainly not much of a god. I spit on that kind of deity. So would any rational person.

    • Diogenes 2 you are not placing your faith in the Lord you are placing your faith in the men who started the religion and the only way that you know that the bible is a users manual is because it says so.

      I am not taking a chance I am living my life without the rules and limits placed on me by the men who started this religion. To live your life in fear that if you use your mind you will go to hell is not to my way of thinking living it is imprisionment and at that it is imprisionment to the rules of men long dead. How sad is that.

  6. I am a Christian. No, I've never seen the face of God; but I would much rather believe in God than believe that everything in the world just somehow, by itself; came into existence. Some people believe that something exploded and the Earth came to be from that. What exploded? How did the thing that exploded come into existence? What caused the thing that exploded to explode, and Who created the thing that exploded? Where did the sun come from? Where do the wind and the rain come from? Who created water, or how did it just spontaneously exist? During the winter time, when water freezes, how is it that we have snowflakes, rather than chunks of ice falling from the sky?

    God is not threatened by unbelief, nor is He threatened by New Age Philosophy. If you're absolutely sure that there is no God, here are a few websites you should visit. While you're there, you may want to contact the organizations that host the websites and let them know of your findings.

    When your time on Earth is over and you stand before God, what proof are you going to show Him that He does not exist?

    • Eric since we are asking silly questions Where did God come from? If nothing can exist without being created than who created God?

      Occams Razor says that the simple answer is usually right. Simply put we are here. God is not. We made god.

  7. I love that this is coming from someone who probably knows more about god than most people. I feel like the word athiest has a negative connotation and sometimes I even have trouble calling myself one (I was raised evangelical christian). I find it hard to talk about religion because most people do not understand 1. my point of view and 2. that I am not looking to be converted and I am not trying to convert you- live and let live. My "a-ha moment", as oprah would call it, was while in youth church (I was 12 or 13 ) the pastor said that "You can believe in god and that is great but if we do not live for him it is not enough. Even if you believe in god and you do not read your bible and pray EVERY DAY, you will still go to hell". From that day forward: I guess I chose 'hell'. So, my parents thought they would compromise with me and let me go to 'big people church' (adult service). Where I got to hear all kinds of things including preaching hatred toward other religions, gay bashing and the like. I realized very quickly that any place that preaches hate in the name of 'good' is what evil truly is.

      • the word religion has a worst connotation if you ask me. how many people have been tortured or killed in the name of god? how many cultures have been wiped out as an act of salvation?

  8. @Gordon – I hear alot of whining about how unfair you think God is and how unfair he is to you.
    Seriously, because your Co Worker drives a Benz and you don't thats on your Top Ten for Atheists Belief.
    Based on what you are Saying you sound more like the writer / comic Gordon Douglas not the man that was ever a Champion for Christ. I don't believe you went to Seminar and if by chance you did and this weak drivel of excuse drove you away, you were not saved to start with.

    • Really? REALLY? Is that all you took out of this article? Did you choose the sentence that had the word "Mercedes" in it and read only that? Your idiocy doesn't even deserve my response.

      • Gordon, you're like the prodigal son!
        You had a good Christian upbringing (presumably) but you were tempted by the things of the world and moved away from God – but each day God's waiting for you to come back.

        And he'll keep on waiting and waiting for you to return throughout the rest of your life.

      • Why were you even whining about a Mercedes anyway? It's just a car. Whatever car you had was just fine. A car is supposed to get you from point A to point B. This is exactly why you don't compare yourself to people. This is why we say be content with what you have. Some people can't even afford a car. They'd take a car that's worse than yours if they could, and you worry about something petty like that?

        • I have been having these discussions with christians for a long time now and even after all this time I still can't believe the unmitigated idiocy of a statement like yours Candace. Is that all you have taken away from this whole article? That he should have been happy with his car? Do you think he has renounced your religion solely because Jesus wouldn't pimp his ride? You read through the whole article and this is the sum total of your rebuttal? How typically pathetic.

          • all ive noticed is people sating their opinions, and then athiests not stating a counter piont, but beiing strait up dueschbags, if your argument is just insults, then find a better place to share your “ideas”

    • Straw men and no true Scotsmen and bullshit, oh my!

      Your reading comprehension skills are among the worst I've ever encountered. Of course, that is understandable – you will rationalize the impossible, glorify the abominable, and ignore the contradictory, all to prevent you from having to be honest with yourself.

      Just because you are comfortable with self-deception doesn't give you the right to malign someone else's experiences.

  9. Christians need to at least address one of the 10 reasons in their comments, instead of taking jabs at strawman arguments about atheism.

  10. #7) It takes more faith to believe in evolution than creation
    #8) Are we to assume the author is right because he daringly questioned his faith? All intellectually honest people do this.
    #9) Religion is destructive–I agree. Jesus was opposed to religion and religious people. In fact, it was religious people that killed Jesus.
    #10) The author loses all credibility on this point. Religious intolerance is documented all around the world (particularly in the 33rd parallel). If you read the writing of almost ANY of the founding fathers, they did not support a "precept of separation." In fact, the first published Bible in the U.S. was printed by Congress "for use in schools."

    This author needs to continue his daring exploration.Enter text right here!

      • I think you'll find that there is an absolute mountain of evidence for God, if you open your eyes to see it.
        (e.g. healing testimonies)

        :) xx

        • Why aren't any of Heidi's books published by medical institutes? Are any of her healings documented in a peer reviewed journal?

        • Then tell us what they are. I realize that the very foundation of religion is for people to believe something only because someone says it and no proof is ever required. But in the rational world, that doesn't work.

          "Healing testimonies"? You cannot be serious. There has not been a single case of healing of anything that can be shown to be by divine intervention. Most of them have been shown to be outright frauds and the rest have natural explanations. Science, unlike religion, readily admits that it doesn't know everything. That explanations for natural events must be adjusted when new evidence becomes available. Religion doesn't even admit the possibility of any evidence, old or new. It simply say, "This is how it is, don't ask questions."

          Again, show us your evidence for any god. Then I will show you far more proof that there is not. When you can show proof, I can disprove it. Until then, there is nothing to disprove.

    • Speaking of #7, this shows your colossal ignorance. There are thousands of pieces of evidence for evolution in museums, universities, and laboratories all over the world. There is not a single bit of evidence anywhere for creationism.

      FYI, "faith" is accepting as true something with no supporting evidence and possibly much evidence against it.

      #8 We are accepting the truth of the author's statements because he offers proof. Unlike you. who offers nothing. If you were intellectually honest, you would furnish proof but you have none, so give none.

      #9 What jesus? He never existed. There is no proof at all. Look up Krishna, Horus, Attis, and Mithra. Then think about this:

      here is not one contemporary account of any jesus.  Isn’t it strange that the Romans, who kept such good records otherwise, made no mention of any jesus?

      Jesus is someone who was supposed to have had great effect socially, politically, religiously, and performed several miracles.  Then there was the very public trial and execution.  But not one word, either officially, or in surviving private correspondence has appeared.

      The first accounts of any jesus appear in the gospel of Mark, written from 50 to 110 years after the "facts", depending upon which biblical "scholar" you believe.

      #10. Yes, religious intolerance is well-documented. But it is religions being intolerant of other religions and intolerant of non-believers, gays, women, and minorities.

      Your comment about the Founding Fathers is nothing more than a typical christian lie. Here's a few direct quotes to show what an obnoxious liar you are.

      Difference of opinion is advantageous in religion. The several sects perform the office of a Censor morum over each other. Is uniformity attainable? Millions of innocent men, women, and children, since the introduction of Christianity, have been burnt, tortured, fined, imprisoned; yet we have not advanced one inch towards uniformity. What has been the effect of coercion? To make one half the world fools, and the other half hypocrites. To support roguery and error all over the earth.

      Thomas Jefferson. Query 17 on religion in his Notes on the State of Virginia:
      “Man once surrendering his reason, has no remaining guard against the most monstrous absurdities, and like a ship without a rudder, is the sport of every wind. With such persons, gullibility, which they call faith, takes the helm from the hand of reason and the mind becomes a wreck.” (Thomas Jefferson)

      “Question with boldness even the existence of a God; because, if there be one, he must more approve of the homage of reason, than that of blindfolded fear.” Thomas Jefferson

      I have examined all the known superstitions of the world, and I do not find in our particular superstition of Christianity one redeeming feature. They are all alike founded on fables and mythology. Thomas Jefferson

      The way to see by faith is to shut the eye of reason: The Morning Daylight appears plainer when you put out your Candle. Benjamin Franklin

      The day will come when the mystical generation of Jesus…will be classed with the fable of the generation of Minerva in the brain of Jupiter.
      Thomas Jefferson

      The Bible is such a book of lies and contradictions there is no knowing which part to believe or whether any. Thomas Paine

      The U.S. Constitution is a secular document. It begins, "We the people," and contains no mention of "God" or "Christianity." Its only references to religion are exclusionary, such as, "no religious test shall ever be required as a qualification to any office or public trust" (Art. VI), and "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof" (First Amendment). The presidential oath of office, the only oath detailed in the Constitution, does not contain the phrase "so help me God" or any requirement to swear on a bible (Art. II, Sec. 1, Clause 8). If we are a Christian nation, why doesn't our Constitution say so?

      In 1797 America made a treaty with Tripoli, declaring that "the government of the United States is not, in any sense, founded on the Christian religion." This reassurance to Islam was written under Washington's presidency, and approved by the Senate under John Adams.

      Need more? I have plenty. But I offer facts, you offer "faith". Show us some facts and improve your credibility. Right now, it is hovering a little below zero.

    • 7: It takes no faith to believe in evolution. The theory of evolution has evidence to back it. The story of creation is just that…a story and has no evidence whatsoever.

      The real question, chris, is this: Why is your faith in God so weak that you can't accept the fact that God used evolution as a means to an end?

  11. A few verses for everyone to read. This is refuring to things that will happen in the end times. I am praying for you, Gordan Douglas.

    1 Timothy 4
    1 The Spirit clearly says that in later times some will abandon the faith and follow deceiving spirits and doctrines of demons. 2 Such teachings come through hypocritical liars, whose consciences have been seared as with a hot iron. 3 They forbid people to marry and order them to abstain from certain foods, which God created to be received with thanksgiving by those who believe and who know the truth.

    II Timothy 3:1-5,7
    "But realize this, that in the last days difficult times will come. For men will be lovers of self, lovers of money, boastful, arrogant, disobedient to their parents, ungrateful, unholy, unloving, unforgiving, malicious gossips, without self-control, brutal, haters of good, treacherous, reckless, conceited, lovers of pleasure rather than lovers of god; holding to a form of godliness, although they have denied its power; always learning and never able to come to the knowledge of the truth."

    • This goes along with my point that religion is by its very nature deluding. I could write a book that says "There are some atheists who have become Christians because they had ridiculous spiritual experiences. Don't listen to them because they are obviously stupid."

      You can pray for me all you want, but until you learn to spell "referring" and also my first name I won't even begin to listen to you. I know that you are deluded, you are wrong, and that if you would read this article with even an ounce of thought instead of with your mind closed off in the face of your delusion you would probably never pray for anything again. I know how hard it is to scrutinize your own deeply held beliefs, but I dare you to try it. If God is really as powerful as you say he is, the Holy Spirit will discern for you and teach you how I am wrong… "Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God." If God is true, he will answer any doubts you may have.

      Go ahead. I dare you to write a rebuttal… Answer every one of my ten points with a well-thought-out answer that doesn't require theology or Scripture. Share the article with your pastor and dare him to share it with your congregation (with a rebuttal, if he can muster one). I dare you to try.

      • Oh the Holy Spirit has discerned for me what is right and wrong GordAN. And I am reading with my mind closed off to your points because I will not be swayed by worldly thoughts (your false teachings). Of course I will use the BIble to rebuttal your points. That is the word of God. Why wouldn't I? I will speak truth. My inheritance is in heaven. Not of worldy things on this earth. God warns us against people preaching false teachings like you. Read 2 Peter 2. I dare you.

        You can say you could write a book that says ""There are some atheists who have become Christians because they had ridiculous spiritual experiences. Don't listen to them because they are obviously stupid." But isn't it funny that the bible talks about everything in this life? I just want to say there is a verse that describes you in the bible below:

        • 1 John 2: 18-29 "18 Children, it is the last hour; and as you have heard that antichrist is coming, so now many antichrists have come; therefore we know that it is the last hour. 19 These people left our churches, but they never really belonged with us; otherwise they would have stayed with us. When they left, it proved that they did not belong to us. 20 But you have been anointed by the Holy One, and you all know. 21 I write to you, not because you do not know the truth, but because you know it, and know that no lie is of the truth. 22 Who is the liar but he who denies that Jesus is the Christ? This is the antichrist, he who denies the Father and the Son. 23 No one who denies the Son has the Father. He who confesses the Son has the Father also. 24 So you must remain faithful to what you have been taught from the beginning. If you do, you will remain in fellowship with the Son and with the Father. 25 And in this fellowship we enjoy the eternal life he promised.

          • 26 I am writing these things to warn you about those who want to lead you astray. 27 But you have received the Holy Spirit, and he lives within you, so you don't need anyone to teach you what is true. For the Spirit teaches you everything you need to know, and what he teaches is TRUE-it is not a lie. SO just as he has taught you, remain in fellowship with Christ.

            28 And now, dear childres, remain in fellowship with Christ so that when he returns, you will be full of courage and not shrink back from him in shame. 29 Since we know that Christ is righteous, we also know that all who do what is right are God's children.
            We are christians… You tell me why we would not defend our faith with love and truth. Why would I not use the bible to rebuttal your points? Why would i use my own words and not Gods? Give me a reason why i should question Gods wisdom. His wisdom is unfathomable. I don't understand it. But i do understand that God has given us truth in his word and freedom from this world to live a life in his glory. He isn't just a saviour, he's a Lord.

          • 28 Do you not know? Have you not heard? The Everlasting God, the LORD, the Creator of the ends of the earth does not become weary or tired. His understanding is UNFATHOMABLE . (Isaiah 40:28).

            You can't fathom his wisdom. You cannot fathom his mind. It's just sad that you have shrank back from God in shame.

            Also, I am an exercise science major with a biology minor. You don't think I am tested everyday to question my God? I hear about evolution and all these reasons for why there is not a God. But, to me as i learn about how complex this earth is, or how complex our bodies are (the physiological make up of our cardiovascular system, our nervous system, etc), it's just even more proof as to why there is a creator. Unless, you have not been educated in the science realm. I dare you.

          • I will post something soon to rebuttal your false teachings. Just wanted you to see that their is proof in the bible about people like you and your false teachings. I just think you forget that God is the creator of the universe and his understanding surpasses ours greatly. We will never understand him until we are with him. You know all this, you've read the bible many times. Maybe you just forgot… or let satan manipulate your belief.

          • Note to Jerry: Bible verses are useless as arguments if the person you are arguing doesn't believe the Bible is true. It's unlikely we'll even read them.

          • More likely is that we've already read a LOT more of the bible than the person quoting it at us, and have a far better and deeper understanding of what it actually says. For many of us, it's why we don't believe that bullshit any more in the first place.

            Read your bibles, dear Christians – it's a sure-fire path to atheism, no doubt about it!

    • Sometimes i wonder if these "end times" that are so prevalent in the latter parts of the new testament are talking about the end times of religion, as opposed to the end of time, as the religious are so fervous to see it..

    • It is good to know that some is out there praying for us. I wouldn't spend too much time on it though, because as far as I can tell from the many different bibles I have read, I am still going to hell because I don't have complete faith in a god. Although I do pray to the God of Sun quite often.

    • First of all, "praying for you" is as offensive to atheists as it would be to you id a satanists told you he was going to "Sacrifice a couple of babies to Lord Satan for you". But christians, in their smug arrogance thing they are entitled to be as obnoxious and offensive as they choose.

      When you quote the babble, you are discarding any possibility of anyone thinking rationally trusting anything you say. The bible is a collection of badly translated, politically edited myths and lies. Yes, it does contain some verifiable historical incidents that have no bearing on the truthfulness of the rest. Here's a modern example to show you haw ridiculous it can be:

      On the 11th of September, 2001, two commercial aircraft flew into the twin towers of the World Trade Center in New York City, killing thousands.

      Some people believe that this was an act of terrorism by an Islamic fundamentalist organization.

      It was really the power of my god directing those planes to warn the people of the USA and the world to abandon their wicked ways and praise the only true god.

      The first sentence is unquestionable historic fact. The last sentence is a delusional lie but is impossible to prove to be false. The “truth” of all “holy books” is based upon this same technique.

  12. A lot of good answers to a lot of stupid statement. Are you serious? Joyce Meyer? I'd eat her for breakfast. Crossway? InTouch? Honestly? I've never even heard of the last, but I'm sure they would all do exactly what a lot of the Christians who have posted here would do: claim the Bible is true without any proof, tell me I'm going to hell because I don't believe it, "prove me wrong" by taking one sentence I said and refuting it ("Of course God doesn't want you to have a Mercedes!") and walk away smugly smiling and feeling that they've won. I'd like to be set up for a debate with Joyce Meyer. I thought she was ridiculous even when I was a Christian.

    As for your last comment: When my time on earth is over, I will not stand before God because he does not exist. When your time on earth is over and you stand before Zeus, what proof are you going to show him that he doesn't exist?

    • Yup. Just give me 30 minutes with him. If he sends me to hell afterwards I'll still have taken the moral high ground. The conscience he gave me says so.

    • I wouldn''t call it self-hate. I would call it realizing that we can't save ourselves. Just because I realize I have made mistakes does not mean I hate myself.

    • Self-hate? No way. You don't see saved, God-loving Christians committing suicide now, do you?
      When you''ve got Jesus Christ as your rock you can love yourself because you've got the perfect foundation for your life! Jesus conquered the world for us.

      God loves us so much that he gave his only begotten son for us. How could we ever hate ourselves knowing that?

      • My younger sister tried to commit suicide. Twice. She's a devout Christian. Anything else you want to say? I swear, you people are beyond delusional.

  13. "I would much rather believe in God than believe that everything in the world just somehow, by itself; came into existence."

    Remember: what you would rather believe has no bearing AT ALL on whether it is true. I would really like to believe that there is a diamond the size of a refrigerator buried in my back yard. It gives me hope and solace. Does that make it true?

  14. Funny when people quote the bible to prove that it is valid.
    Also, and this is VERY important, it seems that EVERY bible thumper believes there are two choices to explain the universe.
    1. the bible or
    2. evolution
    There is a third and MORE LIKELY option-
    What wrong with 'WE DON'T KNOW'? seriously. Humans have been here for a micro second compared to the age of the universe. It's not far fetched that we don't have the answers.
    There may very well be 'Something' responsible for the universe…but it SURE AS HECK isn't not represented by ANY man made religion book. Guaranteed

    • Could it be that both science and the bible work together? The bible explaining the why, science explaining the how?

      • “Religion explains the why”
        So explain to me WHY Islam explains the WHY differently from Hinduism differently from Judaism differently from Catholicism differently from Mormonism differently from Scientology differently from Taoism differently from Sikhism differently from Buddhism differently from Lutheran differently from Paganism differently from Bahai differently from Zoroastrianism …

        And modern science explains not only the how’s, but the what’s, when’s and yes, the why’s as well all based on evidential methodologies and logical reasoning.

      • And how does that differ from Islam, Hinduism, Judaism, Catholicism, Scientology, Taoism, Sikhism, Buddhism….

        The only diffenence athiesm does is NOT assume there is a God(s). Here's analogy you might be able to grasp… atheism is like to religion as NOT collecting stamps is like a hobby. You're the one claiming God (and funny how God always agrees with YOUR views) exists.

    • Bob, I think it's that we (humans in general) like easy answers. Black or white, not shades of grey.

      I'm pretty solid on the "we don't know all the answers yet". Oh, and also the "I don't really care where the universe came from, as the nature of its origin does not impact my brief life."

    • Since evolution doesn't even attempt to explain the universe they're even stupider.

      Evolution is merely the explanation for what happened after life started. It is nothing less and it is nothing more.

  15. @Eric. You choose to ignore the glaring truth that you should be accountable for your own actions and opt instead to believe in some magician in the sky to control your destiny. Read a chemistry book if you want to know most of the answers to those simple questions you asked. Hell that should be your new religion, Readabookology you want to know why things do what they do, read a book thats up to date with contemporary logic, the bible is cute if you like old books. You don't know what god is or is not threatened by, its your arrogance to presume that you have any exclusive knowledge to such a supreme entity as you claim him to be. And by the by, I think God would have his own domain .god – if he truly was the creator and almighty.

  16. Dinosaurs! End Point. The bible denies their existence. Yet Hollywood did not bury their props all over the world.

      • Tell me…how long ago do you think the BIble says the world was created?

        Because the Bible never explicitly states that dinosaurs did exist. And unless you're saying the BIble was talking about things hundreds of millions of years ago you have a problem with what you said.

    • What? The Bible denies the existence of dinosaurs? Since when?

      Job 40:15-19 (NKJV) "Look now at the behemoth, which I made along with you; He eats grass like an ox. See now, his strength is in his hips, And his power is in his stomach muscles. He moves his tail like a cedar; The sinews of his thighs are tightly knit. His bones are like beams of bronze, His ribs like bars of iron. He is the first of the ways of God; Only He who made him can bring near His sword."

      Sounds kinda like a dinosaur to me. Look up Leviathan also.

      But your false assumptions about when dinosaurs existed color your judgment. You have faith that they existed millions of years ago, even though there is no evidence that their existence was more than thousands of years ago. One would almost think that you were under the delusion of some religion. But no, that can't possibly be because you're rational and open-minded right?

      • Yeah the problem, No R U, is this. You are assuming that it's referring to a dinosaur. To me it's talking about an Elephant. Or a rhino. That's the problem with interpretation.

        Then there is the fact that the Bible is less then 10,000 years old and dinosaurs existed 65 million years ago. So tell me…how exactly would anyone from less then 10,000 years ago know about the sinews of a dinosaur, how it's tail moves, what its stomach is like when no human has ever seen a living dinosaur?

        After all, dinosaurs went extinct 65 million years ago and we humans, or to be more specific we homo sapiens, are only 200,000 years old? What? Those ancient humans had a Delorean time machine? Or perhaps they had Bill and Ted's phone booth? Or did Doctor Who show them?

        Sorry, the Fred Flintsone show is not a documentary.

  17. I again would like to revert you back to what the author has stated about the girl being raped, or the woman being abuse. My question is, if you are walking down the street tomorrow night, and a drunk driver, not seeing very well at night, hits you, then continues to drive away because he doesn't know he hit you, leaving you for to die, was that your God's plan for you. He planned that driver to be there that night and hit and kill you? Why would he do that to you. You were a good Christian person. Is that him getting back at you for stealing that pack of gum when you were 8 years old? What is the reason for that. Or was it just that some idiot had a really shitty day, went out and drank too much and decided to drive home. You end up dead, he doesn't even know he hit you, but his life goes on.

  18. How perfect of a life did he live if he left millions of people to die by someone else's hand. A perfect life would have been saving everyone. Unless you mean perfect as in "the best he could when he was here."

    • The whole reason Jesus came on this earth was to provide a path for humans to have eternal life. This life on earth is only temporary. Jesus' mission was to save us from eternal suffering. It is our choice on whether or not we respond to the gift he gave us. You say, "A perfect life would have been saving everyone." However, love never forces itself on anyone. If it did, it would cease to be love. C.S. Lewis said, "there are people who say to God, 'your will be done' and others to whom God must say 'your will be done'." Some people just don't want the gift of eternal life that God has offered all of us. A truly loving and perfect God would never force this gift on anyone that does not want it.

      • If you loved someone, you would push them out of the way of a speeding vehicle regardless of whether they wanted you to or not. The Bible says that God is not willing that any should perish. I know that the next part says "but that all should come to repentance," but honestly: is God really that evil that he would penalize everyone to an eternity of fiery punishment for something done by a man 6,000 years ago who never even really existed ("for by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin, and so death passed upon all men for that all have sinned")? As Christopher Hitchens says, that's tantamount to the ridiculous notion that we are all created sick and then commanded to be well.

        • I liken it to a romantic relationship. I can love a woman all I want, but if she doesn't love me back, then there is no relationship. No matter how much I try to get her to be with me, she refuses and runs away. Now, I could force her to be with me, but that is not love anymore. It is more like slavery and she would despise me anyway. Kind of like the way you despise the idea of God right now. God does give us free will to choose. Like I said, love never forces itself on anyone.

          I am pretty sure we all would have done the same thing Adam did if we were put in that situation. And yes, you could say we were all born into sin and commanded to be well. However, it would be completely different if God did not make a way for us to be well. If that were the case, then I would agree that he is evil; but he did make a way! And that way is through Jesus Christ.

          • My great great great great… great forefather ate an apple, so I and my sons are condemned forever? Why doesn't God just make another apple?
            It would be no trouble for an all-powerful God to just forgive people without this whole lifetime-test thing. So what difference does Jesus make, other than a bit of torture for God's viewing pleasure? Just because I say I'm sorry, why does God say "oh that's ok then". He can't really be very angry about his apple and that time I thought about shoplifting some lollies when I was 5 if that's all it takes. Why did God need payback on himself/Jesus? There was no need for Jesus except that God has a perverted notion of eternal revenge for a petty crime that he knew would be committed in the first place.

          • I think that if your god who does not exist truly loved you he would wipe all memory of himself from all the people of earth. That would end alot of the pain and suffering that exists today.

  19. Unfortunately, grew up in a family that is 100% catholic. Although they don't refer to their religion often, my parents believe, just like many other catholic adults such as teachers and priests, that it is wrong to even show a sign of questioning your faith. I believe that is being hypocritical, for the church says it is good to question your faith so you can learn more about it. As I've questioned my faith openly with teachers or priests, I've discovered that they often become angry with you when they cannot answer a question or that they will work their way around the question instead of answering it directly. In the end I know what I truely believe and no one can change my opinion.

    • Mike, I'm sorry that you grew up in a place where you are not allowed to question your faith. I've grown up in a Christian home, going to church, and all my life my pastors have encouraged me to ask questions. I encourage you to seek out a Christian who is not afraid to be challenged. I believe God created us to think critically about what we believe. If I hadn't grown up with that, my faith wouldn't be my own–it would just be my parents or my pastors faith that they've stuck on me. I suggest you really take some time, read the bible, and figure out for yourself what you believe about Christ. What you think about him will effect the rest of your life.

      I'll be totally honest. There are parts of the bible where I have thought they were contradictions. However, whenever I have questioned God, He has been so faithful to show me the truth. I find through studying the bible more deeply (through looking at the author's cultural/historical perspective, looking up words in Greek, and seeing how specific parts fit into the context of the bible), I have learned these "contradictions" are not contradictions.

    • Question with boldness even the existence of a God; because, if there be one, he must more approve of the homage of reason, than that of blindfolded fear. –Thomas Jefferson

  20. #7) It takes more faith to believe in evolution than creation
    #8) Are we to assume the author is right because he daringly questioned his faith? All intellectually honest people do this.
    #9) Religion is destructive–I agree. Jesus was opposed to religion and religious people. In fact, it was religious people that killed Jesus.
    #10) The author loses all credibility on this point. Religious intolerance is documented all around the world (particularly in the 33rd parallel). If you read the writing of almost ANY of the founding fathers, they did not support a "precept of separation." In fact, the first published Bible in the U.S. was printed by Congress "for use in schools."

    This author needs to continue his daring exploration.

    • #7: No, it doesn't, although I know all the creationists out there spout this idiotic mantra, and so, too, must you. Read Richard Dawkins' newest book. He lays out how very simple evolution is to prove true… You would literally have to be a mentally challenged child not to understand. However, like I've already said, you don't want to see it. You want your God to be real and true, so you willingly say this even though the evidence to the contrary is astounding.
      #8: Did you only read the last sentence of this one?
      #9: Jesus, if he ever was a real person, was an anarchist who tried to get the people to rise up against the government, saying he was going to topple it and bring in a new regime. FAITH is destructive, because it blinds people to truth, causes them to form into tight-knit cliques that sequester themselves away from everyone else, keeps us believing that "God did it" rather than helping us answer our questions… Again, I don't think you read any of this paragraph.
      #10: …or this one. Did you fail to read the bit about how Christians don't get killed because they are Christians, but because they tell people that their culture, belief systems, and traditions are all of the devil and they will burn in hell forever if they don't change to become exactly like the missionary and follow his beliefs. Frankly, I'm surprised we don't see more shootings of Mormons or Jehovah's Witnesses in this country.

      All done. Weak arguments from someone who clearly didn't bother to read the article. Anyone else?

      • I read your article and I liked it. I agree with you and I had a very similar upbringing. I don't like the way you are handling the comments portion of this post though. Instead of the understanding, relating tone you had in your actual post, you've exchanged it for something much less easier to read. You know what it is like to absolutely believe in God so why are you going about it this way? People who believe in God have so much more to lose than you do. They're going to be much more personally invested in defending their God–you should know this. I'm sure at many points in your life you felt the burning anger of someone telling you everything you believe is a lie. How you worried you're not preaching hard enough. If they just understood then they could be saved too and not go to hell.

        Like I said, I admire your article, but I'm kind of disgusted now after reading all of these comments. THIS is why atheists have a bad name–because they are so often demeaning. I wasn't an idiot when I was a christian, and I am not an idiot now. I'd seriously reconsider how you talk to people who don't agree with you. Some of them may seem dumb, misinformed, delusional, etc… But you know what that is like. And one of the messages I got from your article was that people need to question their faith PERSONALLY. No one will be swayed by what another person tells them. In fact, it will probably distract them from that personal inspection. If atheists stopped responding to Christians then those Christians would probably have a lot more free time to question their faith. But until then, why do you care? If these people choose to ignore all contrary evidence and believe in God then it's not like you let them go to hell. Like you didn't "witness" hard enough. You don't believe in that any more. Why say anything at all? You wrote your article and most of the people here liked it. And the ones who didn't are taking a lashing by the other users. Why not just leave it at that? Why are you fighting with them?

        • I'm sorry you disagree with the way I'm speaking here. First, I am replying not to people who are saying "I didn't like your article," but people who are attacking me ad hominem… "You never were really a Christian," "I'm sorry for you and I'll be praying for you," and the like. They can leave their prayers to their fictional, evil deity at the door. I certainly don't want people asking someone responsible for mass genocide to help me or bring me closer to him. So you see, although they are getting a lashing from the other readers, it isn't the other reader's fight… they aren't the ones who are being spoken to… I am, and this is my battle to fight.

          And as far as why I even bother to debate in the first place… it isn't like Christians keep to themselves. I have no problem with the Amish, because they aren't trying to pass legislature to make it so my homosexual friends can't get married, and they aren't trying to take away my rights and my humanity because I don't believe like them, and they aren't hindering the progress of science, medicine, and society by saying "There's no reason to study that… God did it. End of story." The Amish aren't trying to get my children to be forced to learn about Creationism and the Bible in school, and they aren't trying to command the publishers of my children's schoolbooks to include a disclaimer saying that evolution isn't a reliable science. The Amish promote society among themselves and themselves only, which is one problem that I do have with them, but Christians create huge divides in community by breaking everyone up into splinter groups that have no contact with one another outside of debate and argument. Religion is, at its core, either responsible for most of the bloodshed in history or is the tool used to promote it, and still is to this day. Religionists are an end-of-the-world cult based on the shedding of blood and want nothing more to see this present world end. The religious faithful engage in activity every day all around the globe (and by way of missionaries even in places where they should not naturally be) to spread a message that everyone has to be just like them or they will spend an eternity suffering in the fires of hell. They take their children and brainwash them early in their life so there is barely a chance for them to ever turn away from it, and they do this with threats of hellfire and damnation and terror.

          Someone needs to fight against religion. It is the greatest force for evil in the world. As it's been said, good people do good things, and evil people do evil things, but to make a good person do evil things you need religion. It is destroying this world, and at the very least it is holding us back from reaching our true potential.

          I wasn't an idiot when I was a Christian, either, but I do admit now that I was severely deluded and could not for the life of me make a good reasoned decision. Some very intelligent people can still be stupid at times, and I was one of those intelligent-but-stupid people. I freely admit that. It took realizing that I was being an idiot, that I wasn't functioning up to par with my potential, that I was willingly casting off good information and accepting bad information, before I accepted that I was wrong and changed my mind.

          • Gordon, How can you fault a Christian for honestly believing in something and trying to tell people (including you) about it because they believe it is the answer to life? If a Christian says that he/she believes in Heaven and Hell and that Jesus is the only salvation, then why do they have to be "bigoted" when they try and tell people about Him? If all Christians kept quiet and didn't speak out for what they believe in then I would question whether they really believe it.

            Something as crucial as a belief in eternal salvation/damnation should absolutely be talked about if you really think its true, failing to tell people about it would be far more hateful than offending someone with the Gospel.

            I know you have probably heard something similar to this said before since you used to be a pastor, but how can you praise the Amish for not telling everyone about Jesus (someone they claim to believe) yet fault a Christian who genuinely cares for you and wants you to know the truth because they believe it to be true?

          • Ronnie, How can you fault a Muslim for honestly believing in something and trying to tell people (including you ) about it because they believe it is the answer to life?

            Ronnie, How can you fault a Scientologist for honestly believing in something and trying to tell people (including you) about it because they believe it is the answer to life?

            (and I can probably go on for just about every religion in the world).

            I'll tell you wide, because it's rude, intrusive and unwanted by most people in the best of circumstances and it results in people blowing up abortion clinics and flying into buildings in the worst of cases.

        • Furthermore, I'd like to point out that I've been respectful to those who were respectful to me, and I've retracted disrespect from those who retracted their disrespect for me. I believe I've been quite fair, considering the people I am talking to are all responding because they believe I am dead wrong and heading for hell, and can only be saved from that fate by accepting their view of things.

          And, by the way, atheism has a bad name because most of the world is religious and hates the fact that anyone could exist apart from their god. When I was a Christian, I believed that all nonbelievers were under a strong Satanic delusion and were unconsciously fighting on the side of the Devil to destroy Christianity. THAT is why atheism has a bad name, not because of the people who are fighting to protect themselves, their families, and their world from the destructive force of religion. Thomas Jefferson once said that the only way to keep a true democracy would be to have armed revolutions every twenty years or so to keep people in line. You may not agree with this statement, but does it mean that Tom Jefferson gave Americans a bad name? Quite the opposite.

    • The founding fathers said "We hold these truths to be self evident, that all men are created equal". And then they immediately sanctioned slavery, forbid men who owned no land from voting etc… Their ideals were often ahead of their own views.

    • It does not take more faith to believe in evolution than creation: their are libraries full of data supporting it.

      Also 'faith' and 'belief' do not belong to the vocabulary of science.

      The Founding Fathers were suckled on the milk of 18th Century Rationalism. "Decline and Fall" was the most popular book at the Second Continental Congress, including the notorious Chapter 15 "On the Object and Condition of the Early Christians." As Jefferson said "it does me no harm whether my neighbor believes in twenty gods or no god. It neither picks my pocket nor breaks my leg."

    • Yeah first off Congress did not publish a Bible. The only reason it paid for any Bibles was because the Bible was the most common book back then.

      These are the same Founding Fathers that explictily said that this is not a Christian country. And they're the same people who coined the phrase "Separation of church and state." SPecifically Jefferson and Madison. Or are they not Founding Fathers in your book?

      As for #7: It takes no faith to beleive in evolution. Evolution is a scientific theory…just like gravity. Are you going to say that it takes faith to believe in gravity?

      Sorry, the one without credibility, Chris, is you.

  21. At Gordon Douglas' last argument about evil: What is evil according to an atheist? Without God, evil is relative. Good and evil are whatever you want it to be. If God does not exist, I determine what is right and what is wrong. So, if I determine in my mind that raping my next door neighbor is morally justifiable, who are you or anyone else to tell me that I am wrong? Without God, ethics and morality slowly degenerate to the point where everything is relative and what is right for you is right for you and what is wrong for me is wrong for me. The very moral compass that Gordon Douglas uses to prove that there is no God and evil exists was given to him by something that transcends our human nature. We all have a sense of right and wrong and we all know deep down that we haven't always followed that sense of right and wrong. If hypothetically, God does exist and has issued moral absolutes that all humans should follow, then we know what is wrong and right, good and evil, bad and good.

    • **sigh** are there any good Christian arguments? You DO know that the ten commandments were plagiarized from the Code of Hammurabi and the Unalterable Laws of the Medes and the Persians, and that Confuscious said the Golden Rule thousands of years before Jesus, right? RIGHT? Please tell me that you understand that if we were all killing each other and robbing from each other and lying about each other our species would not have survived its infancy, and so community cooperation is an evolutionary imperative built in to every person. Please tell me that you understand the Bible contains laws saying we should stone a woman to death for not screaming loud enough to be heard, and that we can sell our own daughter to our own son as a sex slave, and commandments from God saying to mass-genocide entire races of people, and to rape women so they can become your wife… Please tell me you understand that God doesn't believe women are people, instead belonging to either their husband or their father, and that their entire life is based on whether or not they are virgins and can bear children. Please tell me that you understand that a God who would say everyone should die because of the sin of Adam, but that certain people who sinned themselves could stay alive (like David, who killed Uriah and had extramarital sex with Bathsheba), but that everyone has to take part in the bloody human sacrifice of Jesus in order to avoid being burned in Hell for eternity even though he claims to love us is evil… please tell me how that particular god, who cannot be proven, is not the only God worshiped in the world today, who's own book contains such glaring errors, absurdities, atrocities, and inconsistencies, and who allows such evil to exist in the world (and who, for his part, is responsible for most of them) is worth your time or your worship, your love, your respect… your life… and please tell me in which ridiculous world you live where such a monster is responsible for telling me not to do bad things.

      My final question, to you and everyone else reading my article, is this: do you REALLY need god to tell you not to kill somebody? And if so, are you only obeying him because you're afraid of him, like a pothead who doesn't light up in public so the cops don't catch him? Are YOU really that evil? If so, forget God… you and every Christian who believes like you should go turn yourselves in at the nearest asylum for the criminally insane, because you are all clearly sociopaths.

      • Yes, I believe that ancient civilizations had commandments and laws in common with each other. To be quite honest, it makes sense because the bible says that God has written his law on our hearts so men are without excuse. It wasn't until the most recent few centuries that the concept of God not existing came into being. I think every ancient civilization believed in some kind of superior force or being that created the universe in which we live. And each civilization had certain laws and values in common with each other by which they lived by. Call me deluded, but I definitely think there is a correlation there. It wasn't an evolutionary mechanism of survival, it was God placing a conscience into every man and woman he created. The theory of evolution has some dangerous implications. Hitler himself justified the extermination of an entire group of people using the concepts of Darwinian evolution. I don't think it was a coincidence that he attempted to exterminate the Jews, God's chosen people either. I also don't think it is a coincidence that against all odds, Israel is now a nation with its own land after thousands of years in obscurity. (by the way, Israel becoming a nation again was predicted in the bible) It is amazing that they continue to be a nation to this day despite the hostile islamic nations they are surrounded by all wanting Israel to be wiped off the face of the earth.

        In the history of mankind, no man has ever been able to create something from nothing. The first law of thermodynamics states that matter can neither be created or destroyed. If there is no God and evolution is true, what was the mechanism that turned inorganic substances into organic substances? If the universe began as nothing but dust and gas, then where did the dust and gas come from? Also, please show me some evidence of macro-evolution. How do you explain the Cambrian explosion? The odds of life as we know it existing like it does happening by chance are overwhelming. It definitely does take more faith to believe in something like evolution than it does an intelligent designer.

        There is evidence that the bible is true. For one, biblical prophesy provides some evidence. Ever heard of the city of Tyre? In Ezekiel 26, it was predicted that Tyre would be destroyed and scraped like the top of a rock. It would become a place for the spreading of nets and be no more. To this day, Tyre is exactly as it was predicted in Ezekiel. Modern archaeology has proven that many peoples and cities mentioned in the bible actually existed. Then there are the dead sea scrolls, the testimony and martyrdom of Jesus' disciples, etc.. There is so much more I could write about.

        Gordon, I apologize for writing so much and not contending all of your points. One of my passions is debating and talking with people about the existence of God, other religions, and evolution. I like hearing what other people have to say. I don't appreciate the fact that you said I should turn myself into a mental hospital, but then again, it was predicted that people are going to hate me because of Jesus and what I believe. Thank you for your response to my objection as well.

    • So what you're saying is we should execute people if they don't worship on Saturday? You do worship on Saturday right… RIGHT? Also God sanctioned Genocide, does that mean genocide is OK? If your children talk back to you, you can kill them. Does that seem morally just, God thinks it is.

      If you kill someone then you're dangerous to society. If you think it's ok. Fine, but we're going to put you in a little box to protect other people. Is it "bad"? Well if you killed someone who was going to do great harm then maybe it was morally justifiable–even God just said "murder" and then never followed up with a definition of murder. If you follow through and kill someone as God commanded for not worshiping on Saturday I would consider that Murder. If you were a soldier and killed someone is that justifiable? What if the war ends up being unjustified? What if you're an Air-force pilot and are bombing targets but accidentally kill a daycare full of children? Is that justifiable? Is it murder?

      Even within something which should be clear "Thou Shalt Not Murder", it's arbitrary and relative what is and is not murder killing and justified killing. Things get even more slippery in the gray day-to-day reality that is life. Is stealing bread if you are starving bad? What about the mentally ill? If you are sick and can't think straight and commit rape is the person really responsible? What about a 2 year old who draws a gun and shoots their sibling? I don't remember any of those situations being covered in the Bible. That means we'll just have to decide for ourselves what is right and wrong.

      If hypothetically God does exist, he never gave us clear enough moral direction to actually know what is and is not bad. Justice is subjective. Life rarely presents us with absolutes.

      For those of us who aren't sociopaths though there is a pretty good guiding principle to judge what is right and what is wrong:
      "We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness."

      • The laws in the old testament were written for the ancient theocratic nation of Israel. I do not live under that theocratic government. I live under the law given by Jesus in the four gospels. This law focuses on personal morality rather than laws that govern a land. Paul himself gave a list of things to avoid in almost every letter he wrote in the new testament. Jesus said the law can be summed up in two commandments: love God and love others. If I love others, will I kill them? Will I steal from them? Will I lie to them? Will I sleep with their spouse? No. On the contrary, I will try convince them that they should call on Jesus to save them from their sins so they won't have to experience eternal punishment. Because if I truly believe what I claim and if I truly want to obey the command to love others, I should be desperate to try and convince everyone that they should turn from their sins and trust in Jesus. That is the reason I am writing to all of you on this website.

        You can come up with all of these different hypothetical situations but practically speaking on a day-to-day basis, we know almost in every situation what is right and what is wrong because inherently, we have been given that sense by God. I admit that there are situations where we don't always know what is right and wrong. But those situations are few and far between and in those situations we should pray and ask for guidance as to what to do.

        • The laws in the Old Testament, if they were truly written by a good, loving, just God, should not have included "kill women who don't scream loud enough when they are being raped," or "Sell your daughter as a sex slave, even to your own son if you like," or "kill everyone who lives in that city." It sounds clearly to me like men wrote those laws. And, by the way, Jesus said not even the tiniest part of the law would change or be taken away. And, by the way, it was the Rabbi Hillel the Elder that first summed up the law like that, NOT Jesus. Just like everything else about him, Jesus is just a plagiarism, and there is not a shred of evidence outside hoaxes and forgeries to prove that he ever even existed.

          Paul gave a list of some things to avoid, yes. One such thing was not, in fact, "treat women like equals," or "Christians, don't own slaves." In fact, he was for both of these things.

          • You're reading the bible as if Moses or Paul were writing directly to you. That's not the case. Moses was writing to a specific audience. Paul was writing to a specific audience. So cultural things, such as having slaves or treatment of women was completely different back then. (However, if you'll look in Ephesians, the way the bible says to handle slaves are not at all how slaves were handled in America if that's what you're picturing.)

            I'm impressed you read the bible 26 times. Awesome. How much time did you get to spend looking deeper in the word instead of just reading it quickly? In a span of maybe 10 yrs between your senior year of high school & seminary, I don't see how you'd have that much time for that. I don't mean digging in at church. I mean personally on your own deciding to learn more about God's character.

            Sounds like you did a lot of great things. Was that out of your own power & your own self-ambition to get to know the Lord or because you were so moved by God's grace that there could be clearly no other way of living? Do you feel like you ever had Jesus in your heart? (I'm not trying to say I know here. I'm just asking to see more where you're coming from.)

          • I'm sorry to break it to you, but I've said the EXACT same things you're saying to me to others when I was a pastor. You obviously didn't read the section labeled "There's no difference." The only reason you can't get this through your head is because if someone like me exists, who has had the exact same experience as you, then your entire faith comes tumbling down. You're horrified at the prospect that I might really have been a "true" Christian at one point and then "saw the light." You and everyone like you can blurt out "Awww, you just weren't a good Christian," but you didn't know me… and you'll refuse to accept who I was because it batters down your mythology that I once was a "mighty man of God" and now I cannot in any way believe.

            For those of you believing that this came from Satan: it came from an earnest attempt to know God more, from serious study of the Bible without the theologies of man, along with day-and-night prayer that God mold me into the best possible servant for him I could be. If God is real, and he rewarded that search by allowing the Devil to delude me, he who said he wasn't willing that any should perish, he who said if any man lack wisdom let him ask of god that giveth to all men liberally and upbraideth not, then he is clearly an EVIL god, and the verse that says god cannot be tempted neither tempts he any man is contradictory.

        • I know for a fact that you have not actually read any of what the gospels wrote. In every instance of the gospels' stories overlapping, they are ALL inconsistent. NONE of what the gospels wrote are consistent with what the others said. Not to mention, that, of all the historians and scholars of those days, NONE of them ever wrote about a "jesus christ." What that means, is that no credible scholar wrote about the SON OF GOD, but yet DOZENS of people wrote about Socrates, someone who lived more than 400 years BEFORE the son of god arrived. Now, why would people write about Socrates, but not the son of god? You would think people would have their priorities in order.

  22. This author has written an essay from a string of non-sequiturs. He even puts the cherry on top by titling his uninformed essay with "The Top 10 Reasons…" when he has bolded 11 reasons. That's just for starters…
    To point #1) Faith is NOT the true measure of the veracity of a religion. Who claims that faith makes right?
    #2) The author (while being a "Christian") never understood what faith is. Faith is not something the uninformed claim when they don't understand something. It's what grows when you see Heidi Baker's ministry of healing countless blind eyes, or Bruce Van Natta's healing (completely doctor documented) which has stumped the medical community. These stories of miraculous power are too numerous to count.
    #3) You CAN prove a designer when there is a design, but you CAN"T prove evolution.
    #4) The God of the Bible has never been disproved. On the contrary, science manuals like "Evidence That Demands a Verdict" are continually updated with new evidence.
    #5) Religion IS deluding…but God is not.
    #6) The author is correct here: Science is better…and it point to God.

    • Wow. Just about everything you just said is wrong and delusional, with the exception of your one good argument: I did in fact bold eleven points. In my original draft I had God can be disproved and God cannot be proven as one joint section.

      #1: Christians say they know their religion is true because of their faith, but people of other religions have enough faith to fly planes into buildings.
      #2: Well documented? I've never heard of it. If it were true it would be in the mainstream right now… Everyone would have heard about it. Since you believe in it, I'll have to take for granted that the person with whom I am currently engaged in debate is mad and deluded rather than that he is right, since what he has mentioned is not, in fact, documented anywhere except a fringe element. If your friends really want to do a great work, they would be well advised to go claim James Randi's 10 million dollar reward for proof of the supernatural.
      #3: You say that only because you choose not to believe in evolution. The evidence is clear, and evolution is easily verifiable. It is still called a theory, but so are gravity and relativity.
      #4: Of course not. You can't disprove something that doesn't exist. I thought I said that.
      #5: Your God is religion. If it were not for the Bible, which lays down the precepts of the Abrahamic traditions, you would have no concept of God.
      #6: Clearly you have never read a science book, or taken an English class. I suggest you read Stephen Hawking's newest book. The concept of the universe does not need a designer in order to work.

      • Never heard of James Randi and his 10 million dollar prize… Must not be true since its not mainstream… Hmmm… Gordon your arguments are hilarious! You are bein so ignorant. Dude dont you have faith in there not being a God? People have faith that there is a God… people have faith in other things… those are called idols… it talks about that in the bible… so your faith that there is not God must not be right… your argument for #1 in your reply is just plain dumb lol.

    • #2) But why do we need healing? My computer catches viruses and I just wipe it and restore my data. Good as new! Imagine if I told you I had created a word processing application but that you could never back up your files, you could only ever unplug the power in the computer for 3 minutes or you would lose everything and that it would most likely lose 95% of your data anyway? You would tell me to take my program and shove it. But that's what an all powerful creator made.

      – We are extremely susceptible to disease and mutation.
      – We have no redundant systems. Your liver fails… you're dead. (Except thanks to the miracles of science, not prayer)
      – If we are deprived of energy (oxygen) for more than a couple minutes we die.
      – Nothing substantial grows back (Even the lowly gecko can regrow limbs, what gives!?)
      – Our memory is awful.
      – We have no backup systems. Even the worst thought out system can be saved by a good backup system which restores you to your starting point.

      We wouldn't be so dependent and desperate for Miracles if we had just been properly designed in the first place. Your average engineer could write up a spec list for a new species better than God's best effort.

    • Chris I loved reading your post – it's great.
      A few people from my church went and worked with Heidi Baker in an orphanage in Mozambique.
      And yes! There are SO MANY healing testimonies!
      So many people at my church have been healed of various illnesses/injuries!

    • #3. Yes, evolution has been proved many times over. You may choose not to believe it, but all that proves is that you are stubbornly stupid. Creationism or it's false flag, intelligent design, has no proof at all. Show us the proof!

      #4 Any god must first be proved before that proof can be disputed. The burden of proof is always on those making the claims. Your statement is simply another of the denials and distractions theists use to avoid facing the truth.

      #5 Yes, religion is deluding and so is a belief in any god. Again, show us the proof! No rational thinkers will hold their breath waiting for that.

      #6 Exactly how does science point to god? That is yet another lie theists consistently tell. The truth is, science closes the places where the "god of the gaps" can even be postulated.

  23. I would like to offer an answer to each one of your (incredibly silly) questions:

    1) "What exploded?" The entire universe, actually. The theory is that all matter in existence was condensed into a single point, and that matter rapidly expanded, cooled, and eventually became what we see in the cosmos today.
    2) "How did that thing that exploded come into existence?" Quite frankly, we have no idea. There is no prevailing theory for the origins of space and time. There is simply nothing to draw conclusions from or build models on..
    3) "What caused the thing that exploded to explode, and Who created the thing that exploded?" We don't know, and Nobody. Your assumption that everything has to have a Creator is erroneous, and implies that you are, at best, severely undereducated.
    4) "Where did the sun come from?" An unimaginably vast cloud of gas and dust, slowly being pulled together by gravity until it became so dense that nuclear fusion ignited in its core and it became a star.
    5) "Where do the wind and the rain come from?" This question does not even deserve a response. It is not something a thinking man would think. It's more in line with the thought processes of a primitive hunter/gatherer, wondering why bad weather killed half his tribe.
    6) "Who created water, or how did it spontaneously exist?" See response 3, and chemistry. If you'll recall your fifth-grade science class, you'll remember that there are things called "reactions" that happen, where one thing interacts with another thing to produce one or more different things.
    7) " is it that we have snowflakes, rather than chunks of ice falling from the sky?" Snowflakes ARE chunks of ice, you nitwit. The reason they're not bigger is because of the way precipitation works, which is far too ling and common-sense to go into here. There's also, y'know, HAIL.
    8) "When your time on Earth is over, and you stand before God…" If your God exists, and I meet It, I'm sure as hell not going to be standing there. I'm going to be running the other direction before the sadistic bastard decides to kill my family and cover me in boils for the hell of it.[Job Chapters 1-2]

    • There's a reason why it's called a theory. It's not proven fact. Why must you atheists always respond to a Christian with hatred all the time?

      • …Really? THIS is why you people piss me off. You don't understand the scientific definition of the word "theory." And, honestly, no one here is being hateful. They're all just so incredible exasperated at the way you responded. How come whenever a person questions your faith, they're expressing "hatred" towards you? Grow up.

      • Clearly, you are too uneducated to know the difference between theory and hypothesis in the scientific meanings.

        Atheists do not respond with hatred. Perhaps it is the christian hatred of anything that disagrees with your cherished delusions reflecting back upon you? When it comes to hate, nothing matched religion. Christians kill other christians over ridiculously small pints of theology. All religions have killed non-believers, often in horrible ways. Religions teach and practice intolerance, discrimination, and hate.

        These are nothing more than observed facts. If you choose to interpret that as insults or hate, you must be projecting your own attitude upon others.

  24. I feel sorry for you as you don't know the TRUE GOD!! Don't you know that if you doubt God, then He will give you reason to find more doubts as God does not make you follow HIM!! One day, its not going to be a matter of whether you believe in God or not, its going to be a matter of whether you choose to follow your Creator. And whether you wish to obey Him. Honestly, what have you got to look forward to ?? – A dusty old grave for all eterntiy. Personally, I would rather have the hope, joy, peace, and love in my heart of a saviour coming to save me from eternal death! I pray for you that you will not be bitter. And find the true GOD whom does love you, no matter how you feel about HIM.

    • Didn't I say this in my arguments??? Yes, I did know what you call the true God, and I've uttered the exact same words you just did to people before. Go look up "No True Scotsman" on wikipedia. It's a bad argument. And, my dear, just because a fairy tale is nice and makes you happy (even though, really, if you pay close attention, the fairy tale isn't all that nice) does not mean that it's true. How do you explain all the people of other religions in the world who feel just like you do?

    • Just because you want it to be true, doesn't make it true. You will end up in a dusty grave like the rest of us, with no consciousness and nothing remaining in this world other than the mark you left on in in your short life. Make it a good life, you only get one.

  25. Futile arguments. I'm not for or against the article but you need stronger arguments. There IS a Creator. That much is obvious. You must have intelligence in order to think of something to create. What it is called is another story.

    • I agree, the arguments are futile, because as I stated, people get ideas in their heads and then close themselves off to accepting new ideas… whenever someone's world view is challenged it will always result in a fight-or-flight mechanism being triggered. However, you lost me at the "there IS a Creator" bit. No, there clearly is not. As I mentioned in the article, you only believe that because you aren't knowledgeable enough to make any other claim. "Man make fire. Man make hut. Man must also make sky." Do yourself a favor and read at least one book.

      • If we were not allowing our worldview to be challenged, we wouldn't be reading this article… I dont see any Christians fighting or flighting about this article. However, "Do yourself a favor and read at least one book" smacks of the former. Perhaps atheist revert to "fight or flight" at an evolutionary evolved higher rate? lol :) good times

    • hmmm. Does the creator have a creator as well? How about "I don't know"? It works out the same and is at least honest. Even if there is such a thing, so what?

  26. Even if there were no answers to any of your questions (and there are) it still doesn't make your particular god exist as if it is the "default" option.

  27. This is a question for Gordon:

    Now that you are an atheist, what is your outlook on life after death? What do you find comfort in knowing that you will die one day and that will be the end? I just want your perspective on this.

    • I was not living for billions of years before I was born and it didn't seem to bother me. Why should I be worried about not living after I die?

    • Why do I need to find comfort in something? And if something does give me comfort, does that mean it is true? Does that mean it needs to lead to wars, and bloodshed, and legislation against people who are "different," and threats of hellfire and brimstone, and separation of people for no other reason than where they find their comfort, and the slowing down of science and medicine because we believe we know how things work without investigating them further?

      And for your information, I find comfort in exactly that which evolution mandates I find comfort in: one of these days I will have children, and well after I am dead my children will carry my genes forward and be productive citizens on this planet earth. Hopefully they will help pave the way for the betterment of our species, but at the very least they will love life, love living, love each other, and one day continue to pass on my genes and the genes of my father and his father before him.

      • This seems to be a meaningless life though. I understand that being a Christian is a leap of faith that you have not reached and have no desire to reach. That is fine. But I believe that there is a hell and I believe God lovingly wants to save me. I am happy to believe in a meaningful, hopeful future.

        • belief in god isnt the only available meaning to life. Atheists have meaning to theirs as well, its just not the same as yours.

    • I find it comforting to know I will die one day because it is the natural order of all living creatures.The earth absorbs what is needed and new life is formed.I had my ride its someone else turn.We are not special get over it!

    • I'd like your perspective on that, Jon. Once you're dead, I'd have thought that was pretty much it.
      Please enlighten me
      Tho' to be honest I've witnessed some odd, unexplained happenings

    • Jon that's exactly it: religions churlishly prey on fear of death. The are (pardon the pun) in bad faith from the start!

    • There is no god and there never was a jesus. You can produce no evidence of either while I can produce much evidence against. For example:

      There is not one contemporary account of any jesus.  Isn’t it strange that the Romans, who kept such good records otherwise, made no mention of any jesus?

      Jesus is someone who was supposed to have had great effect socially, politically, religiously, and performed several miracles.  Then there was the very public trial and execution.  But not one word, either officially, or in surviving private correspondence has appeared.

      The first mention of any jesus is in the gospel of Mark, written from 40 to 110 years, depending upon which biblical "scholar" you believe, after the "facts".

      Show some independently verifiable evidence of your statements or admit is is just some things you prefer to believe because it makes you feel good, like Santa Clause or the Easter Bunny.

  28. Do Christians troll the entire freaking internet? Seriously, grow up, use the stump in your head called a brain and deal with the fact youre entire existence is futile and have fun while you can. Come over to the dark side, we wont make you spout bullshit all day just to be accepted.

    • I would like to know what part of Christianity you find so abhorant, I mean, what lead you to think that it was all just made up?

      • there is the little bit about the fact that almost all of it can be proven false.

        isreal did some excatvation work. jews never belonged to the egyptions as slaves in large numbers.
        no ark on mt arat.
        no great flood.
        world not made in as short of an amount of time as the bible states.
        humans weren't around at the beggining.
        oh ya, and my personal favorite : the only proof for jesus ever existing is the bible. no one else, anywhere ever mentions him.

      • It is techinally all made up if you really think about it. Even if you choose to believe that Jesus Christ is your savior and god is your everlasting truth it was made up by a bunch of old men who believe they're talking to a higher deity in their brain and who can prove that they're actually talking to them? No one but themselves.

        Each religion was created by men or a man because of what they felt was the truth.

      • Reading the bible allowed me to see that it was nothing more than a badly-translated, politically edited, collection of myths and lies. Then I learned about Krishna, Attis, Horus, and Mithra. That showed me how the entire jesus myth was invented from earlier myths.

        Further study revealed that the first mention of any jesus is in the gospel of Mark, written from 40 to 110 years, depending upon which biblical "scholar" you believe, after the "facts".

        There is not one contemporary account of any jesus. Isn’t it strange that the Romans, who kept such good records otherwise, made no mention of any jesus?

        Jesus is someone who was supposed to have had great effect socially, politically, religiously, and performed several miracles. Then there was the very public trial and execution. But not one word, either officially, or in surviving private correspondence has appeared.

        What makes christianity so abhorrent? It might be the violence. The murders at family planning clinics, the intolerance for gays, minorities, or anyone that doesn't believe as that particular sect does. It might be the countless wars fought over trivial points of theology. More recently, it could be allowing children to die of curable conditions so their parents could "pray for them". Perhaps it is the constant attempts to enact religious ideas into laws for all of us.

        Finally, it might be the rising tide of dominionism in the USA as shown by political figures such as Michelle Bachmann, Rick Perry, Sarah Palin, and others.

        Naturally, the brainwashiing of children, using guilt and fear to force their views on others "(you're going to hell) has nothing abhorrent about them. No, not at all. (sarcasm icon needed here)

  29. Enter textGordon, How can you fault a Christian for honestly believing in something and trying to tell people (including you) about it because they believe it is the answer to life? If a Christian says that he/she believes in Heaven and Hell and that Jesus is the only salvation, then why do they have to be "bigoted" when they try and tell people about Him? If all Christians kept quiet and didn't speak out for what they believe in then I would question whether they really believe it.

    Something as crucial as a belief in eternal salvation/damnation should absolutely be talked about if you really think its true, failing to tell people about it would be far more hateful than offending someone with the Gospel.

    I know you have probably heard something similar to this said before since you used to be a pastor, but how can you praise the Amish for not telling everyone about Jesus (someone they claim to believe) yet fault a Christian who genuinely cares for you and wants you to know the truth because they believe it to be true? right here!

    • I agree. If a Christian (or Hindu, Muslim, Pastafarian, whatever) is guilty for professing what they believe, then this article makes Atheists just as guilty for doing the exact same thing.

      I'll admit that I also find it a bit on the hypocritical side, in that this article states that everyone other religion is wrong, which is the same thing it chastises Christians for believing.

      • Atheists are not guilty for professing what they believe (see previous "not collecting stamps" vs "having a hobby" argument).

        Religions by their very nature are concepts of man. They have the sole purpose of controlling large numbers of people into groups for their own ends (often very "bad").

        We are all "Atheists". It's just that "true" atheists believe in one less religion.

        Until the blocker of religion is picked like a scab from the society of the world, then man will never reach his full potential – viable space travel and future colonization of other worlds…

  30. Gordon, thankyou, this is a very well written article, the points you put forward are clear and concise. It upsets me that theists try their hardest to prove you wrong and when that fails and they run out of counter points, they resort to a 'well god's real and you'll be sorry' attitude.

    It would be nice to hear from a few current or former Muslims, Jews, Budhists (Taoists?), Scientologists etc to get their opinions. Thanks again for the good read.

  31. I learn from all religion and belong to none. I don't see how it's possible for all these religions to be real simultaneously, or have the arrogance to insist they are false. Is it possible one is the real one? maybe. Is it possible none are the real ones? maybe. Is it possible they are all real somehow? maybe. Who knows really. Either direction, believer or atheist requires faith in something that cannot be proven, and I don't have it either way.

  32. Satan knows a lot about God as well, and he knows the bible thoroughly. In fact, he was there when it all started, until his rebellion consumed his entirety. Why do you all think he makes our lives a living hell here so we can miss out on the ultimate paradise and kingdom of God? The enemy hates every last one of you and will never stop at nothing to yank you away from God's glory. Sigh. God gives us strength to get though our trials of 'this world'. God doesn't grant you every little wish of 'this world' because the enemy(which Jesus clearly states while being tempted) is the prince of 'this world'. Stop wanting things of this world and focus on the things you lack in the spiritual world. People don't get a new car and they curse God. They don't get enough money to pay the bills, so they curse God. The God who is merciful enough to give them life every morning, just so they can curse him again. Faith has given this near high-school dropout(who graduated near the bottom of his class), to an excelling 4.0 college student. I have ADHD and my need for medication to concentrate has been eliminated on faith alone. Science can't operate on faith because faith existed before science. It took faith to create the scientific world and enough faith for scientists to keep the train rolling. God will use anyone for a breakthrough in science, even if they reject him. The problem is that mankind wants the gratification and praise for the work for themselves, and not for the God who created them. People look around you, time is running short. These world catastrophes aren't a mere thing of nature, this is biblical prophecy being fulfilled. People simply don't understand the true wrath that awaits if they don't love one another and turn to Christ. Sigh. True signs of a hopeless fraction. :(

        • Why not? It is a bit insane to compare someone to Satan. It is an especially good tactic when someone has clearly eviscerated your world view and the only choice you can immediately see is "fight-or-flight." Take this comments thread, for example. Most people opposing the article have either attacked me by saying I'm Satan or some false prophet sent by Satan, or they have run away and said I couldn't possibly have been a real Christian. I couldn't have prophecied any clearer. There will not be one Christian who takes a word of what I've said and actually manages to come up with a real argument against it. It will continue to be ad hominem or "No True Scotsman" arguments.

    • John I agree that we should all practice a little more humility but satan does not exist anywhere but in the bible which is a story written by men.

    • Ramen. One of the few things that make sense from the bible. Sometimes it's frustrating fighting the tide of ignorance of the believers over and over and over again.

    • Everyone should want to live for themselves rather than being tied to a mythological Bronze-age figure imagined by illiterate shepherds in the middle east thousands of years ago. It is one of the truly sad things about religion, that it makes people sequester themselves away from living a real life, and instead forces them to live for a paycheck they will never be able to cash.

  33. I agree with him for the most part. He has a lot of good points. But clitoral disfigurement? Really? God is not evil if he allows clitoral disfigurement. In those cultures in Africa, clitoral disfigurement is a good thing. It is cleaner for the woman, better sexually for the man and overall more desirable. It is bad in the respect that it causes stillbirths and may be painful for the woman. But they still choose to do it. Also, it is the same as breast implants in our culture. We get them to be more desirable. There are many negative health effects, and it is also dangerous for potential children. It isn't any cleaner, so it is almost worse than clitoral disfigurement. IS GOD EVIL FOR ALLOWING BREAST IMPLANTS? Thats what some African cultures desire. We may not like it, but it is the same as what we do in our culture. Also, he mentions bettering ourselves and how religion prevents us from doing so. Some African cultures use clitoral disfigurement to better themselves. And the author is considering clitoral disfigurement evil. So is bettering ourselves now evil? Because the author is now contradicting himself. Good job, congratulations, you made no point whatsoever.

    • This argument talks of invalidness when your main point is addressing an example the author used to describe a detail of one of his points. Finally, at the end, you say that an ENTIRE ESSAY has no point because of a single example of a detail.
      However, to actually argue your point, breast implants should be considered evil by the Bible, should they not? They are there to increase temptation to break one of the Ten Commandments: Thou shalt not covet. Therefore, they are Satanist tools designed to make Man fall away from his Faith in God. To connect this with your main point, the clitoral disfigurement does the same thing, yes? It is there to increase the attractiveness of the women, plus it is messing with His image. If God were a woman, He would not have a clitoral disfigurement (nor breast implants). Therefore, according to the Bible, the women are not bettering themselves, as they are distancing themselves from God. This should be the Christian argument.
      The atheist argument is that women in our society have complete control whether they get breast implants, even though there may be social pressure. If the women in Africa do not have this complete control, then their body is being changed without their consent. If this is not done for the health of the person, then generally, it is considered evil. My argument for the difference and distinction between good and evil will be in reply to your next post.

    • (Assuming you aren't a troll or this is a poe) You do realize clitoral disfigurementis is the equivulent of cutting off a man's penis, not just removing the foreskin?

    • If this is such a wonderful thing why do they not let the child grow up and then decide for themselve whether or not to have this torture done to them. They do not because it is all about control and ownership. There is nothing better about this.

    • In the worst cases, women who suffer clitoral disfigurement have the entirety of their outer genitalia cut off with an insanitary object, and their vaginal entrance sewed up, not to be cut open until their marriage is to be consummated. They routinely die of the complications, or if not, they suffer from pain, infections, fistulae upon giving birth etc throughout their lives. They are not 'bettering' themselves, they don't even choose to conform to expectations – they have no choice. This is something that is done to them without their consent so as to make them easier to control. Sound good to you?
      It's a good way to illustrate that most likely either there is no god, or if here is one, it is capricious and cruel. Sure, maybe all these women will get their reward in heaven for all their suffering – but, errrr, since this is an omnipotent freaking deity we are talking about, how about they get their reward by being spared from a life of misery and dergadation? Nope? Oh, well.

  34. I'm back. Also, the author considers various things to be evil. He addresses evil. But what is evil? Who is he to decide what is evil and what is good? What makes him so wonderful? If he is addressing evil at all, obviously he thinks it exists. And if it exists, there has to be a distinction between evil and good. The author has no say in this distinction. Someone else should have created it, an omnipotent being, or God. Now, I have my personal beliefs and I am not saying Christianity or Islam or Buddhism or anything is true, I am just saying that if he addresses evil at all he needs to address morality. Moral relativism is key. As an athiest he should be a moral relativist, or he needs to explain how he came to know the distinction between good and evil. There is a distinction, someone created it, and it wasnt the author. If he is, in fact, a moral relativist, he cannot address good and evil. He wouldnt even believe in it.

    • What is evil? Evil is, unfortunately or fortunately, what the majority of the populace feels is bad, or evil. So, while a single person may have beliefs that say every single animal (or just the cows) are sacred, another may believe in the rule of the jungle, and that eating animals is simply a way of life. Since the majority of Americans do not have a problem eating beef, the majority of cattle in America and many other countries get turned into meat, leather, and other byproducts. However, in India, cattle get to wander the streets without a care in the world. Good and evil are usually determined by the laws of the land. For example, marijuana. It was considered evil by the paper companies in the early 1900's. Therefore, they advertised it as evil, and it was outlawed and placed in the same categories as other drugs for a century. Now, they have tested it and found that it does less damage than cigarettes, so legislation may be passed to change its status from "evil" (read: legal). If a decent government is in place, the populace should be able to go through and change their laws so that anything that the populace believes is evil can be outlawed (not on a whim, but you get my point, I hope).
      Moral relativism, as you so call, is a part of atheists? ("As an athiest he should be a moral relativist…") While you don't explicitly state that Christianity has a fixed moral code (if you are Christian; if you aren't, I apologize for my crude assumption), that seems to be an implied message (and, of course, the Ten Commandments, etc.) However, this has been disproved many times, from the religion's changing standpoint on slavery, women's rights, the rights of nonChristians (the Crusades anyone?).
      -Disorganized thought pattern-
      Finally, you state that "If he is, in fact, a moral relativist, he cannot address good and evil. He wouldnt even believe in it." That just makes no sense. Is morality a truly fixed thing? I don't believe so. Murder may be evil, but are you supposed to let the guy who's threatening you with a gun just shoot and hope that he feels guilty? He may or may not feel guilty, but a bullet through your brain will kill you either way. Or you can fight back with the concealed pistol that you always carry on your body. God says (again, this is an argument against Christianity, but it can be adapted to practically any religion) "Thou shalt not kill." There is no subheading "except in self-defense or in my name," and yet…
      Anyway, just because he believes there is some relativity to morality, that doesn't mean he cannot address good and evil; quite the opposite, he can actually address good and evil in more situations without appearing contradictory.
      I now have a test to study for… So if you find huge grammatical/spelling errors or huge loopholes in my argument, go ahead and let me know in a nice way. Or don't. Either way, I won't be back for a couple of days, after Round Up at the least. Oh and I apologize for the disorganization of my thoughts. They're filled with thoughts of mitochondria and ETC's right now.

    • You're correct it wasn't the author. It's from the surrounding cultural attitude and the empathy that humans evolved over the ages for one and another as a social group. Groups and societies that cooperated and helped each other and protrect eachother will survive better then those who don't.

  35. I'm a sceptic, myself. I don't believe in anything I have to believe in, including atheists. Be wary of ALL 'ists" and "isms".

  36. Wow! Very informative. Ive never heard much from an atheist before. Very interesting story i must say. I believe that as we get older and mature that we tend to get bored with the same old same old and we can get curious about new things and hope for better things. I personally was introduced to the bible at a very young age. And I can say that it kept me in line morally for sure and it gave me hope and assurance and a joy to be alive cause I had something to believe in. As a child it was just amazing to me to know that there was a huge God holding the world in his hands and that baby Jesus was born to save me and the world from a life of sin.

  37. I don't have all the answers but I can say that i am very thankful for the bible and that it portrays reality even if it's one of the scariest things to have to realize that it's the truth. It has been made obvious to me how real it is and in other ways a mystery which in turn makes it interesting and yet has a real peace that abounds it. At an age of knowing that this world is in a state of mass confusion, I believe that the bible has marked that as true prophecy and we can act on it's signs and believe that God is in control or that it's just nature running it's coarse. I presonally accept Jesus and believe he is the risen king and the son of God and I believe in the holy spirit. I don't judge people for what they believe but show love and mercy to all as Jesus did cause to me he is my perfect example of God's love and he is my savior. I don't push Jesus on others. If they want to know more about it then they'll let me know and that is that. We all have our own lives to live and we can choose to be ourselves or someone else. I hope the best for you and that your life is full of whatever makes your life worth while. Blessings to you~

  38. Can we all acually say that God has an ugly past that has been presented to all as a true example of how real he really is. Think about how we as humans don't always like our past brought up. I believe God loves us so much that he is truely an open book. :)

    • The issue though I have with this is do you vote back in a tyrrant because he says he'll be "nicer". Do you ever trust a serial rapist/murderer to take care of your kids unsupervised because he/she claims to be "nicer"?

      Also by most definitions, God has to be well "perfect" to begin with. If one is perfect, then why would there be a behavior change?

  39. Just know that even if you are a non believer life doesn't end at death. The human body uses electricity to function: all thought and body movement. Electricity is an energy. Electricity is comprised of two sides: positive & negative.Energy can not be destroyed. In essense you are that energy. That energy is released when the human physical body dies. Do you go to the positve side or negative side depending on how you lived your life?

      • Yes… That's not how electricity works, we only use positive and negative to describe two types, as those words are direct contradictions to each other and so are the two types of energy. Black and white could have been used to the same effect, but positive and negative make a bit more sense.

  40. Someone set up to find God but found it wasn't there at all while I set up to find me but found it wasn't there too. However though our paths are different yet yet they have the similarity there. Smile & Cheers freinds for the sharing.

  41. And you're no better than the men that you just put down for talking to the way that you do about them. They have different views from yours that doesn't make them ignorant or stupid; just different.

  42. If, by "God," you mean the Judeo-Christian God, I can verify that I felt exactly the same way you do. Don't try to use the "No True Scotsman" argument. I've railed against it here already, but just because you want verification that I must not have been "the real thing" doesn't mean it's going to be forthcoming. I ate, slept, and drank Christ. I woke up in the morning and prayed for hours on my knees, and did the same again at night before bed. I studied the Bible in virtually all of my free time. I witnessed to lost souls and wept when I was turned away. I burned with a burden so strong for the country of Ireland, and later Kenya, that everyone who knew me knew that there was no doubt as to my calling. I led revivals where every person in the house including myself was in tears at the altar at the end of the service. I believe I mentioned most of this in the article, and you failed to notice it because you chose not to read and comprehend something so directly opposed to your world-view.

    It was not a falling-away that led to my atheism, it was an attempt to grow closer to God. I found that he just wasn't there. I found his origins instead of being from time immemorial, in glory eternally past, rather in the songs and sacrifices of mud-sodden pagan hill people. I found Christ, and then I found him again in Horus, and then again in Mithras, and then again, and again, and again…

    There can be no doubt… Religion is false, God does not exist, and if there is some kind of supernatural presence in this world it is outside the reckoning of man.

    • Medical records are documented evidence.

      Cruising the web for stories by people saying what you want to hear is not assembling documented evidence.

  43. "Smack these Bronze Age Hebrew, Volcano God worshipers down !"

    And that's how wars are started.

    Regardless of what you believe or do not believe, intolerance and disrespect is disgusting.

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  45. Thanks for this post! I, too, have come out of religious indoctrination (30 years of it) and am finally able to admit to myself that there is no god and I am, indeed, an atheist. While I am not a pastor and don't have a seminary training, I grew up on the campus of a Baptist seminary, went to a Baptist college, and have been involved in church music for six of the past 10 years.

    Now, having completed a master of music in choral conducting with the aim of being a full-time church choir director I have come to find that I no longer believe in the teachings of Christianity and must refocus my life and career. But, I have never felt so free. Not free to "sin" as I please, but free from the constant guilt of having the doubts I struggled with for over 15 years, free of the burden of trying to prove I am a good Christian, and free of the dual-minded life I lived knowing the truth of science and "knowing" the "truth" of God.

  46. Pingback: “Reasons for Disbelief” (Repost) « The Secret Atheist

  47. Im not trying to be mean or anything but Gordons post doesnt make sense…. You have not responded to one verse yet… and how it explains people that are going through what you are. The bible is timeless. That just proves it. How am I shrinking back in shame? And, I don't cower in front of my God either… He loves us. And yes i am majoring in exercise science. And when did i say i was encountering proofs of how wrong i am? Dude, your making all this stuff up lol. but anyway….

    2 peter 3:16 "He writes the same way in all his letters, speaking in them of these matters. His letters contain some things that are hard to understand, which ignorant and unstable people distort, as they do the other Scriptures, to their own destruction."

    When ever you bring up scripture in your argument your being ignorant and unstable. God loves you man. He does. God calls us to humble ourselves. Only then will He be able to change us because he gives us a choice.

    • Jerry –

      You're upset that Gordon is not responding to the Bible verses you are quoting. I think you're missing the point articulated by Bev above.

      The Bible can only "prove" things about the nature of god to those who believe that the Bible is the word of god. The Bible is as meaningful to Gordon as the Quran or Teen Witch is to you.

      Quoting verses supposedly inspired by a god means nothing to someone who does not believe the god exists. A nonbeliever views the Bible as an attempt by nomadic shepherds to make sense of the universe, give structure to their society, and differentiate themselves from the surrounding tribes. It is not used by nonbelievers in decision-making processes, although many former Christians have become former Christians after having read the Bible and understanding what it really says — as opposed to the whitewashed fairy tales told in Sunday School.

      See if you care to read Bible stories as they are in the Bible, not as they've been sanitized for kids.

  48. Pingback: An Apology for Apologetics | Walking Away

  49. I have a question I was raised Christian and my grandparents are very devout but its become very clear to me I don't believe any of it, I'm an athiest. So I need some advice how do I tell them? Should I even tell them?

    • My mother used to cringe when I said I was a non believer, which was quite often. I even told her, that the only reason she believed because she was scared not to. Just state your case, if they don't accept it, being devout Christians they should still love you………….shouldn't they ?

  50. Gordon, you are simply amazing, I wish I could be as witty as you while conversing the subject among my friends and colleagues. The comments here are almost all the same: telling you that you will be judged one day. They all speak on the premise that there is a god, because it's so hard to picture life without one.

  51. I'm a 17 year-old Christian. I read your article, found it sort of interesting, but I really feel for you because I think you're missing out on a lot of what God has to offer you :-/. Anyway, let's go through your points!

    #1: Not a good point. No point even bothering to counter that to be honest.

    #2: Hmm. Do you really expect to get every single little thing you’ve ever wanted in life? Was God’s goal to make us lazy and spoilt? The things that we want in life are often worldly possessions, but God wants us to concentrate more on the spiritual side. Satan is the prince of the world. Faith is rewarded so hang in there!

  52. #3: Not true. The Bible doesn't contain empty promises – it's the real, living Word of God – and it's the only religious book that contains scripture that is actually backed up by real events. The miracles of the Bible are coming true in the 21st century. I'm 17 years old and I got baptised and filled with the Holy Spirit last year so I can speak on tongues (it’s in the Bible). Something you might be interested in is that heaps of people at my church have been miraculously healed of all sorts of problems, illnesses, diseases (e.g. skin and lung cancer, alcoholism, drug addiction – to name a few). God healed my own father of Crohn's disease 20 years ago and that's the only reason I'm here today. Isaiah 53:5 – "'But he was wounded for our iniquities, he was bruised for our sins: the chastisement of our peace was upon him, and by his bruises we are healed”. I'd advise you to take a minute to read online about the miracles that God does in people's lives today. You can't simply discredit them, because they're true. Why would someone even bother preaching a message that they don't even believe or when it has absolutely no truth to it?

    • it's the only religious book that contains scripture that is actually backed up by real events.

      Really? Please explain why there is no evidence for the Exodus. No Egyptian record, no archaeological evidence. Also, please explain how the Quran is not backed up by "real events".

      Why would someone even bother preaching a message that they don't even believe or when it has absolutely no truth to it?

      An excellent question. Why do Muslims, Jews, Hindus, and all other non-Christians preach their messages? Surely they can't ALL be true, right?

      • Hi Mike,

        So if you had read the post properly you would have seen that I was talking about miracles – e.g. healings.
        The Bible discusses them in depth and people are being miraculously healed all around us in this very age. What I said was the Bible is the only religious text that makes good on its promises. Again, you misquoted me with the "preaching a message they don't even believe…". And again, if you'd read, you'd have seen it was about true healing testimonies which glorirfy God.

        Medical profesionals can't explain these miraculous healings – but the Bible can.

        • Again, please provide documentation of these miracles. I've asked repeatedly. So far, all you've done is assert that they've happened with no evidence.

          I did not misquote you, a direct quote of your exact words is not a "misquote". You asserted that one of the reasons you follow Christianity is because surely people would not preach something they knew wasn't true. Since all world religions claim exclusively to be true, all but one must be wrong. Do you think they all "know" that they are wrong, or do they all know YOU are wrong?

  53. #4: Pretty void point to be honest. No evidence or anything to back it up with.

    #5: God created you. He knew and loved you before you were even born. He loves you unconditionally – even if you’ve decided not to reciprocate.

    #6: God and science are not incompatible! Why the division? Science does enlighten us and we can make some great discoveries about the earth that God created for us – I find that science gives me more of an appreciation for God’s creation. While we can learn a lot, science can also delude us. Unproven theories are accepted as fact (e.g. The Big Bang and the age of the earth) – someone decides that the earth is millions and millions of years old and it appears in text books, for example. That’s ‘arrogance’ for you. And at least there’s evidence for the existence of God.

    #7: I actually laughed out loud when I read that point! Not a good point at all.

  54. #8: Actually there is a difference between ‘religion’ and having a ‘relationship with God’. Religion, unfortunately, has come to mean more of a stuffy, man-made 'system', if you like, and it's often corrupted. It’s sort of hard to pin down in words but ‘religion’ is more of the concept/system whereas having a relationship with God is personal and real – there are no weird costumes, you don’t have to go through a Pope or a priest to talk to God. It's honest, tangible and true.

    #9: Yes, it can be. Religion is the most controversial issue the world has ever faced so SURELY one is right. Where would the very thought of a God and this debate have come from if there was no truth in it? I wouldn’t even be typing this right now if I didn’t believe in Jesus Christ. I’m a young person and it most certainly does not “lock me in”. It’s liberating, it’s a fantastic feeling having a real relationship with my Creator, knowing that I’m saved from myself and I’ll have eternal life. I’ve got fulfilment knowing I have Jesus in my life.

  55. !#10: You have absolutely no idea of what goes on in the world if you can type that sentence. Please do your research.

    #11: Yes, the world does contain evil but that point has nothing to do with God's existence and proving the Bible wrong. Take a look at this, it’s quite interesting:….

    So, just to conclude, Christianity has stood the test of time which means there must be SOMETHING that makes people stay and keeps converting new believers. God's Word holds power and God keeps his promises to his people – e.g. healings.


    • So, just to conclude, Christianity has stood the test of time which means there must be SOMETHING that makes people stay and keeps converting new believers. God's Word holds power and God keeps his promises to his people – e.g. healings.

      So has Islam. So has Hinduism, which predates Christianity. So has Shintoism. Are you suggesting they are all true?

      • Come on now, you know that Islam is a different story. It's not just a religion – it's an integral part of the Arab cultural, social, political beliefs. What's more, there's often compulsion to follow Islam.

        "Keeps converting new believers" – and in large numbers too.

        Also, something I find interesting is that Christianity and Islam came (at least, it is highly likely) from the same root. Jesus Christ was born from the same blood line as Isaac, Abraham's son, giving birth to Christianity. Islam was born from Abraham's illegitimate son – Ishmael. The Qu'ran refers to Ishmael and Isaac a number of times and of course, Ibrahim. Islam and Christianity are the world's 2 major religions and the religious conflict that we face today, and have faced for centuries, is sparked by them. Considering that they come from the same tree – one of them must be the right one (and I know it's Christianity).

        • Do you suggest that there is not, and has not been, compulsion to follow Christianity? Do you have no clue about the Crusades or the Inquisition?

          Read a history book sometime, Issy.

    • So, just to conclude, Christianity has stood the test of time which means there must be SOMETHING that makes people stay and keeps converting new believers

      It's called brainwashing !!!

  56. I do not believe in God either, but I don't think you understand what the worst "atheist" means. If you are an atheist, you *believe* that God does not exist. The atheist is aware that there is no actual way to disprove the existence of God, yet he holds faith that God is non-existent. The atheist still has to hold belief, just in the non-existence of God.

    You, and most mistaken individuals, are actually agnostic. Gnosis means knowledge, and agnostic just means "one without knowledge." The agnostic person understands that he cannot have proof of either the existence, or non-existence of God.

    Unless you think you CAN disprove the existence of God… but nobody can, and you are mistaken.

    • I'm sorry, Doug, but you are mistaken about the meaning of "atheist" and "agnostic".

      A gnostic believes that he understands the nature of, or knows, god. An agnostic, the opposite, believes that humans cannot understand the nature of, or know, god.

      A theist believes gods exist. Atheist is the opposite — "one who does not believe gods exist". This is different from "one who believes gods do not exist". One is a lack of a belief; the other is an assertive belief.

      The words are pairs of antonyms, not points on a spectrum. It is possible to be an agnostic atheist (one who believes we cannot know gods, and who believes there is inadequate evidence to substantiate their existence), a gnostic theist (most theists think they know a god), or an agnostic theist (believes there is "something out there"). I imagine some "strong atheists" might term themselves "gnostic atheists", as they believe that they know the nature of god, and are certain it is nothing.

      Atheism has recently been broken down into "strong and weak" atheism; the so-called "strong atheists" believe that there are no gods, while "weak atheists" — which includes most people who mistakenly call themselves agnostics — have not seen evidence adequate to substantiate the existence of gods.

      I prefer "nonbeliever" as it is, in my mind at least, more clear what is meant, and encompasses strong atheist, weak atheist, mislabeled agnostic, humanist, Bright, unconverted, etc.

    • No, you lack a belief in god. This sounds like semantics but it is different. There are also different degrees of atheism. The definition you are using is only one, and the most simplistic.

      Bertrand Russell says it better than I ever could.

      "I never know whether I should say "Agnostic" or whether I should say "Atheist". It is a very difficult question and I daresay that some of you have been troubled by it. As a philosopher, if I were speaking to a purely philosophic audience I should say that I ought to describe myself as an Agnostic, because I do not think that there is a conclusive argument by which one prove that there is not a God.

      On the other hand, if I am to convey the right impression to the ordinary man in the street I think I ought to say that I am an Atheist, because when I say that I cannot prove that there is not a God, I ought to add equally that I cannot prove that there are not the Homeric gods.

      None of us would seriously consider the possibility that all the gods of homer really exist, and yet if you were to set to work to give a logical demonstration that Zeus, Hera, Poseidon, and the rest of them did not exist you would find it an awful job. You could not get such proof.

      Therefore, in regard to the Olympic gods, speaking to a purely philosophical audience, I would say that I am an Agnostic. But speaking popularly, I think that all of us would say in regard to those gods that we were Atheists. In regard to the Christian God, I should, I think, take exactly the same line."


  57. It does. But you know what? God gives you your whole life to repent and choose to follow him.
    Scripture says that His mercy is renewed every morning.

    He always forgives you when you say you're sorry for something and make a conscious decision not to do it again. Don't you understand how many chances you have?

    Also, do your parents love you? Yes. Did they discipline you? Yes.

    Furthermore, your whole article was supposed to convince others that God doesn't exist. How on earth are you doing that with your current argument? It's got no bearing.

    You're not even trying to convince us all that God doesn't exist – you're just saying how much you dislike him. Good work…

    • Actually, Gordon's whole article was, as the title states, the top ten reasons he is an atheist. He is not attempting to disprove the existence of a god.

      It is not possible to prove a negative. However, since you claim a god exists, the burden of proof is upon you to prove its existence. Such evidence has not been forthcoming from anybody.

  58. Issy, pretty much all the argument put forward by the "theists" (as stated many times previously) is based upon an assumption that god exists. This is not a suitable basis for discussion and does not address the points being made by the article in any way.

    I am always fascinated by the way that these sorts of threads play out. Generally, the atheist argument is clearly laid out and the theist response something akin to putting your fingers in your ears and repeating the mantra "I do believe in god, I do believe in god" just like dorothy clicking her red shoes together…

    I can see how "comforting" it must be to hold to your belief (I was brought up a christian but never was a "true believer"). For me, it just doesn't equate that I should base my life on some old book cobbled together from various disparate writings that has been "edited" over many centuries.

    I truly "believe" that it's possible to live a fulfilling life with the moral "compass" evolved over the thousands of years that man has been around without the need for reference to a spiritual being or the "promise" of a better life after I'm dead. Better to live life for today…not for tomorrow.

    • Hi :).

      Jaz, that's an incredibly biased attitude to take with the whole "…way that these sorts of threads play out…"
      In fact, Christins have answers that combat atheists' "proof" or "top ten reasons" why God "doesn't exist". In my experience, all the atheists I've known have been stubborn.

      I would love it if you could open your eyes a little and actually see all the things that God is doing in people's lives and how he's healed scores and scores of people. That's soemthing that atheists can never explain and will never experience themselves -but Christians can and do.

      I agree that you don't have to be religious to be moral, but good morals came from God.
      (I take Biology at school by the way, so I learn about evolution – which is somewhat odd. A very biased education.)

    • I have one major bone to pick with you – "better to live life for today… not for tomorrow". You know what, that's a Christian phrase! When you're spirit-filled Christian you don't NEED to live for tomorrow because you know what's ahead of you. You CAN live for today and not worry about your future because you've got Jesus in your life and you can do anything – nothing is impossible when you're with him.

      Jesus gives you confidence to make the most out of every single day.

      What a terrible mindset you would have if you actually believed it was just you, alone in this whole universe, with no life after death or anything like that. What's the point in living when life's accidental and purposeless?

  59. Hi.
    I was hoping to put in my two cents, if I may.
    I am a believer. I do believe in God and Christ the Son. However, I would like to say that you do make some seriously interesting points whether I agree or not. I am also an Army veteran and I also believe in the foundation of this country. I thank God that I have the freedom of Choice…just like you and every other American has.

    If I am to be a believer in Christ, then I am to love my neighbor regardless of what they believe or how they feel about me. I mean, once you peal away all the dogma and ignorant, belief with no basis, and the stupidity of those who actually believe that since they call themselves "Christians" that it gives them the right to pass judgment, then the teachings of Christ really DID just boil down to "Love Each Other" and "Treat Others as You Would Be Treated".

    THAT'S the God I believe in.

    And with that, I wish you all peace.

  60. If there was a god "he" would make sure that people could not maim and rape and kill and steal in his name. Therefore "he" does not exist. What does exist is organized religion which does harbor people who rape, kill, steal and maim others. The bible is a book written by men for the control of men and women. This is not a holy book.

    To those who will say I am angry at god I reply. NO I am not angry at god for he does not exist. I am angry at the people who insist on forcing thier religion on others and for the time I spent on religion when it never made any sense.

    • Nancy, do you own a Bible?
      If you do (or if you don't, it'd be great to buy or borrow one), I really encourage you to get it out and start readng it. You'll find all the answers relating to every facet of your life in that book. Yu'll find all the answers to your questions.

      Also, look uo healing testimonies on the internet. There are so many of them!
      e.g. 1: My dad was miraculously healed of Crohn's disease 20 years ago, which is incurable. He was healed after months of praying. Healing is promised in the Bible and if you have faith even as small as a mustard seed you can receive the power of God!
      e.g. 2: My good friend was brought up a Christian and when he ws a small kid he fell out of a tree and split his entire head open. Hisdad prayed for him and immediately his head closed up and the pool of blood around his head vanished. Praise God!

      I urge you just to pray to God tonight. Talk oto him, ask him to come into your life like he has in mine, my friends', my family's. I can honestly say that my life is going amazingly well, and it's because of Jesus.
      <3 Jesus Christ! xx

      • Issy – I suggest you read your bible as well. Nothing convinced me more that god was a (petty, insecure, irrational) man-made invention, than reading the bible. Just saying. Read the WHOLE thing. Both old and new… take notes.

        re: eg 1 – I have crohnes, it varies in severity with many factors including stress and diet, and can go into remission spontaneously. Despite being a non-believer, mind also is currently not affecting my life.

        re: eg 2 – did you witness it happen?

        I am not dismissing your examples, except to say that anecdotal evidence is at best open to debate regarding specifics. Rarely is it considered actual evidence for anyone except those to whom it happened. Entirely unconvincing to outsiders.

      • Also – regarding eg 2 – the problem of intercessory prayer. If god's plan was to not have your friend die, why did he allow his head to split open when he fell, requiring prayer to put it back together. Surely it was easier to prevent the fall, than require his dad to 1. see his son in such a state. 2. force his dad to pray at that moment to save his sons life.

        If his dad had not been a devout christian, would god have allowed the son to die in his arms there? Was this just a test of faith (and a terrible, traumatic one at that)?

        Is that the kind of god you want to worship? One who requires, at the metaphorical point of a sword, affirmations of your worship?

      • Issy I have read the bible. I have attended bible studies and I was a regular at church. I really miss the feeling of happiness to be a part of a group and to sing with them. I do not miss the rest of the religious experience because I do not believe that god exists and I have had just as much feeling of happiness at a campfire singalong. Religion is a malebased way to keep people in line especially women. It is a form of control and nothing else, a fairy tale if you will complete with good and evil and I have no questions that your book can answer.

        I do think that the human mind is a wonderful thing and is able to do amazing feats. I also believe that it can make us extremely ill if we are going through a negative situation and not dealing with it or on the other hand it can make us well if we face up to what is bothering us and resolve the situation. Sometimes it is just stopping the rat race for a while and destressing. What else was going on in your dads life at the time that he was ill that he dealt with to give him a feeling of peace? It may have been just the meditation he engaged in which you call prayer.

      • I am glad your life is going amazingly well but I don't think it has to do with god. I think it has to do with the support you feel from being part of a group and I wish you well. If you feel the need to give some other power thanks for the life that you are living well that is your call but I think you are selling yourself short.

      • Issy I have read the bible and studied the bible and though I loved the feeling of community from being in church with people who felt the same way about the important things in life, such as treating others as you would have them treat you, I do not believe that it follows that their is a god. I think if you took away any mention of god and just got together to sing beautiful or happy songs and to smile and talk to and hug other people. You would feel even better and happier than you are today.

        Issy did you see either of the miracles that you mention happen?

  61. !Dear Mr. Gordon Douglas
    After reading your article entitled “Reasons for Disbelief; Top ten reasons I am an atheist, I found that your arguments under the headings of “The God of the bible can be Disproved” and “Religion is destructive” you have no supporting reasons to your conclusion. In your first argument you state that the Bible, Koran, Book of Mormon, etc are basically nonsense and that the God that these religions serve is assumed fictional. You state that the Bible can be proven nonsense, but you fail to provide reasons as to why it is nonsense, therefore making your argument a bad one. In your second heading you state that religion is destructive and list a lot of reasons that religion might create divisions in the world, but because the world has divisions, you fail to explain the reason religion correlates with this. In conclusion your arguments are not supported thoroughly which makes it a bad argument.

    • Though I know you probably won't read this reply, I'm posting it anyway.

      As you may be able to tell from the rest of the article, its not an argument. Its his own reasons, its personal experience.

      You need to do some critical thinking and find your own reasons not to believe.

      As to disproving the existence of gods. How about this: Name 1 single time when someone was legitimately talking with god. Even most christians think that the serial killers and schizophrenics who talk to god are crazy.

      Why would you think that people who 2000 years removed from understanding psychological disorders could possibly be taken seriously? The existence of stories 'inspired by god' from the past is no surprise. What is surprising is that people can choose 1 book to believe amongst the countless others (many of which were destroyed by catholic missionaries).

      Yet the book itself is spouted as evidence that god exists.

      The more a person studies psychology, the easier it is to see how easily we can be manipulated, especially when indoctrinated from youth.

      Just look at the practices of the catholic church for an example. Their history is a step by step listing of how to control people. Baptize early, require regular visits, confide your secrets in us, rules that ensure families are larger which ensures the church is larger, tell them they are need you and that no other church is right. Etc. All cults are more or less run this way.

      From that perspective, its easy to see that Catholicism is the biggest cult in the world.

      So don't feel bad, they've got a really good system at keeping you convinced that you need a church or god to save your soul.

  62. God is not threatened by unbelief, nor is He threatened by New Age Philosophy.

    So why are his followers?

    Question for you on origins: You believe from your statements that everything must have a cause. So tell me, what caused God? Who created God? Who designed God?

    When you answer "He always existed", I will have no choice but to point out to you that positing that a supernatural, hyperintelligent and omnipotent being (certainly intelligently designed, no?) existed for all eternity is no more, and in fact far less, likely than all matter existing for eternity.

  63. Well written article, Thanks for sharing. You're a smart man and it shows. I'm glad you found your way out of the labyrinth.

    If the 20th century has taught us anything about human nature, its that people are very easy to coerce. The marketing revolution that started with Bernays and Freud, wound up as a devastating blow to freedom. Couple the advances in manipulation with the technical progress that has put video at our fingertips, and you wind up with a whole bunch of people who only know a world filled with advertising.

    Humans used to have to exercise their brains much more than they do today. People live like the kings of previous centuries. Its no surprise that they forget how to think. Just look at how many people still bite on every 'end of the world' that's spouted from a pulpit.

    Only now that technology has become so cheap that anyone can create content are we beginning to see another epoch in human evolution. Its no longer just the powerful that can afford to send their messages around the world. It is quite fortunate for us all that people are more and more capable of learning the useful virtues of life on their own.

    Thank god for creating the internet, that more people might learn that faith is not healthy.

  64. Eric sometimes we do have chunks of ice falling from the sky.

    So what you are saying is that your god also made cancer and the plagues and cleft lip and leprosy and all the other illnesses that kill man.

    If your god exists where did he come from and if we are made in his image than where is his wife and his mother and why isn't he married if marriage is between a man and a woman and why are they not listed in the bible because they have to be very important. Or you can say that we are because we are and the bible was written by men who wanted control of people especially women who they considered property and that the diseases that we contract are natures way of keeping a balance between all life on earth. A balance that we are seriously throwing out of wack that will lead to some major illness as the earth rids itself of out overgrown population or more natural catastrophes as we change the climate and shape of this world.

  65. Joe I do not believe I have to pay a penalty for sinning when the bible says that jesus died for my sins. How he could know I would sin far before I was even born is beyond me and if you say that he knows all and that he knows we would all sin before we were created than that tells me that he made us flawed and I am not going to praise anyone for making me flawed so that I can know him more deeply.

  66. I was raised as a Catholic. I abandoned the faith in my late teens after I discovered the horrible crimes committed by the church in the name of God. I turned to Protestantism for roughtly a decade where I discovered that the horrible crimes committed in the name of God went right back to the beginning of the bible. I looked at other religions and found their mythology laughable and in turn their mythology made Christian mythology equally laughable. I don't claim atheism just yet though, I'm still holding out for the idea that a singular consciousness is interconnecting everything and that one day we will evolve to tap into it a will and make the universe a better place.

  67. Pingback: Blog Post: “Reasons for Disbelief: The Top Ten Reasons I Am an Atheist” | Always Question Authority

  68. I respect others and their opinions, but I will say that just because it is someones opinion does not make it right. I am also a seminary student and I would like to say that there where many things in this article and in some of the comments that misrepresent what Christianity beleive and what the Bible teaches about a number of things. This was not a formal critique, so I cannot expect there to be a fair treatment from both viewpoints. Thats fine, you never promised or insinuated you would be doing that, but I would like to say it for the record. Thanks and God bless.

  69. There is no god. Show us even a tiny amount of proof there is.

    Most of the problems of the world are, and always have been, caused by religion. For example, Northern Ireland, the Middle East, 9/11, and family planning clinic bombing in the USA. Then there were the crusades, the inquisition, witch burnings, and the dark ages. Get the idea?

    Humanity will never truly be free until the black yoke of religion is lifted by the clear light of truth and rational thinking.

    Prove that even one of these is not true. Religion is the greatest scam ever worked upon humanity.

  70. Christianity is a dangerous, dangerous tool. I grew up under devout protestants, but due to some rational new friends I learned to think critically and logically. I'd now label myself agnostic. However, I'm still afraid to tell my parents this [wonderful] news.

    1. I love them. I don't want to have them worry the rest of their lives away that their firstborn is going to hell.
    2. I fear them. Spankings are bad.
    3. The most frightening of all: what if I turned them away from Christianity (God forbid) and Mr. Bloodthirsty Himself does exist? After all, if there is an asshole God, who are we to tell him to live his eternal existence otherwise?

    No, the last point doesn't make any logical argument for the God of the Bible, but growing up with Christianity does this to some people. It turned me into an unfortunate, passive aggressive person, who is usually angst-ridden, and sometimes a depressed individual (for the record, all of these unfortunate traits were more prevalent when I was a believer).

    Jesus Christ, my life would be better if you were never a part of it. (Most likely)

    • Regardless, I would still like to say that I do love my life. The depression has slowly been leaving me, but I doubt there's much I can do for my case of anxiety or pent-up anger besides trying to be at peace. I don't want to give the impression that I'm depressed, suicidal or anything at the moment, but rather I WAS when I believed.

  71. You state to believe in God is to believe in a monster just "because he offers us salvation from a pit of fire he himself is threatening us with." Firstly, God did not threaten us with the pit of fire. We threatened ourselves with the pit of fire when we deliberately left His will by our sin. Everyone knows that they truly sin. Especially many of the atheists on this website proudly proclaim they sin because they "want to have fun." This is why we are threatened. Also, to arrogantly proclaim we know better than God WHY he allowed terrible catastrophes to happen is overdone and blasphemous. If we knew all the facts, we might understand better. But the Bible does not give us all the facts. It merely states what happened and if we have seen God's work in our lives, we know that He truly loves us and we will trust Him with our lives. If you have anger at God and refuse to trust Him with your life, I completely understand and sympathize. I have been there. But all I know is that when I entrusted my life to Him, I could face the world fearlessly again because I knew I had someone stronger on my side Who loved me.

    • And do you honestly think you're accomplishing anything by hitting people over the head with your religiou sbeliefs, Samuel?

      Oh and by the way..just to buy you a clue…atheists don't believe in God. Ergo they don't believe in sinning against God.

  72. It would seem that you provide no proof, citation or logical argumentation to any of your claims. You simply, claim it and give (weak) excuses. If this is how you went about Christianity, it is no surprise you turned away from it. The only serviceable argument you present is not one you created: the Epicurean argument of the Problem of Evil. Even then, you do an embarrassingly weak job of handling it, failing to address the moral anchors to which it clings (for example, why do we call evil "evil?" Where does the notion of evil come from? Et cétera). Truly, you are an embarrassment to atheists and – apparently – to Christianity.

    I'm sure you've already seen it, but for the commentators that haven't, there's a great article shooting down every point of this list:

    Please don't associate with me, or any other atheists, with this feeble attempt of argumentation.

  73. Brilliantly written. Cheers to the author and may I say that it FEELS GOOD to be an atheist, no more guilt about masterbating :)). Although being born here in the Philippines where religion also meddles with the development of the country. (Did you know that this is the only country in the world without divorce?!)It's really sad. :(

  74. @Gordon Douglas "We shouldn’t worship a monster because he offers us salvation from a pit of fire he himself is threatening us with."

    The statement above must be the stupidest in the entire article.

    If a person can be sure of two possibilities, worship a monster or be damned to burn forever by this monster then only an utterly mentally retarded person would choose not to worship this monster.

    Evil spirit fearing primitive tribes in the deepest jungles have better thinking faculties than Gordon Douglas!

    • Chris I think it is rather sick not to mention cowardly to worship a monster rather than be damned to burn forever for not worshipping the monster.

      Were you perhaps a bully growing up?

      • @nancy, it is SICK to prefer to burn in Hell forever because your limited faculties consider it “cowardly” (???????) to worship a monster.

        You are a fool.


        • Chris, is that why you worship Yamarāja, the Hindu god of death and Hell? The Hindu Hell is described in the Rigveda, which dates to about 1,700 BCE.

          The eternal punishment doctrine of the Abrahamic religions didn’t get introduced until Daniel’s time; early Jews didn’t have any concept of an afterlife. Wouldn’t you think that when Yahweh was palling around with Abraham and Jacob and Moses he’d have mentioned something about it at the time?

  75. "The Case for Christ" by Lee Strobel, an atheist journalist's investigation as to the validity of Jesus' purported divine lineage based on logic and a critical perspective. He ended up converting. I would suggest reading this book – it's actually very good.

    • I’ve read it. It begins with the a priori assumption that there is a god in the first place.

      His “Case for a Creator” was likewise unconvincing.

  76. The ONLY reason most people are Christians is because they see burn or not to burn. They choose not to burn, only out of fear. What makes an atheist immoral, evil, arrogant, wreckless, conceited, or unforgiving? I choose athiesm out of pure logic. You say it isn't possible for the world to be created and there had to be a god? A lie, you obviously have not seen the miracle of life, how a single organism like a human begins smaller than a spec of dust. Most are Christian or believe in some form of god because everyone else does it. My whole family is of faith, and have somewhat shunned me calling me a hypocrite. What's to be a hypocrite about, there is no proof. The church is a way to control the country, go back in history and tell me what the church has done RIGHT.

  77. In intro to Medical psychiatry in first year medical school, you are taught about 'primitive' verses 'mature' defenses. Consider that momento mori is the great rub of consciousness: remember you must die. It struck me that religions, metaphysical hand-waving to diminish the importance of this life, were indeed 'primitive' defenses against mortality. At the end of the day all religions, even the most esoteric Zen, derive their authority from fear of death.

    Humor is the mature defense.

    • Using the Bible as a reference to their arguments doesn't show that they're morons, it's showing that they know how to use what they're given. They know that the only way to argue that their argument is possible is by basing it on what the whole argument is about, and it's a very logical thing to do. Their side believes that the Bible teaches the word of God, whom they worship devoutly, and the Atheists believe that the Bible teaches whatever man wrote it wished for people to do as it said. Either way if you believe a book just randomly appeared out of no where, you're just plain stupid. The only way the Bible could have come into existence in the first place is if a man had written it, either by being spoken to by the Christian God or by his own will and mind. (Not saying the whole of Christianity is based completely on the Bible itself, just around its teachings.)

  78. I was a Christian for 17 years until I finally broke from the indoctrination. I very much agree with all your points. Well written, thank you.

  79. Really? Christians don’t get persecuted??? I’d love to have you ask Christians in Egypt and China about that one. I’m sure they would either laugh in your face or be terribly disgusted with your level of ignorance.

    • Christians may indeed be getting persecuted in other countries…but we Christians are not being persecuted in this country, James. And you have to admit that more then a few Christians, especially of the conservative bent, like to claim that we Christians are being persecuted here in the United States.

  80. I for one am a devout catholic and am so because i felt god speaking to me, i continue with my faith out of love for god, not fear.

    for me, each to there own, we believe in different things – no need to argue about it – at the end of the day, if we’re wrong, we wont know anyway! it’s an argument no one can win so why argue at all.

    i can’t deny i am dissapointed we live in such a godless society but i have nothing but love and hope for every individual, christian or not.

  81. I almost cried when I was reading this… because this is how exactly I feel. I am not atheist, but I consider myself an agnostic theist. I still believe in God, probably out of cultural norms, but honestly, just a few hours ago, I was like “God, I prayed for you to keep everyone safe on my shift. Why am I getting emergency cases still? Even if I don’t say Jesus’ name, you’re still God and can make things happen right? WHY?”

    I almost lost my faith but I can’t imagine a life of not believing in anything. I just decided to keep believing in the concept of a higher power, but still being skeptical of it all.

    My story towards freedom from religion has been very long and teary, but worth it.

  82. After your section saying science is better, I felt the need to say his…

    1) many scientists were and are actually christians(Newton, Darwin, and sort of Einstein although this would take to long to discuss) , and many have come to christianity through science, especially archeologists trying to disprove the old testament, but then finding it true.

    2) Many top scientists (including steven hawking admit that they cant explain how the universe exists so perfectly, unless there is a creator, or the open denial of God in stating the infinite universe theories, that still don't answer, how did something, come from nothing(and they really get annoying, like an excuse).

    3) and please bear with me, Atheism, in the end takes much more faith, the scientists who actually make the discoveries, but they just deny them,(look up Einstein's fudge factor in the theory of relativity ect.) You apparently are a well learned Christian(once one, always one) I believe you have read about the lengths people go to, to deny God.

    $) finally, you complain that people misunderstand you and think you are angry with God, but with your list of reasons, that seems exactly correct, you appear to have doubt, we all have it at one point, but Jesus gives us hope.

    p.s. where did you meet "christians"(not real ones) who deny the old testament, I would like to talk with them.

  83. also on your topic of how God is man made, the difference between the God of the Bible, and other gods is that the God of the Bible exists outside of time and space, as it says in the Bible, even before we understood that concept, take the greek gods for example, they came from already existing things, while God created existing things… I wish to continue, but for lack of time I digress. How can one say these things, and BELIEVE them, and find happiness, if you look at it Atheism is like a poorly constructed Religion. one cannot say believe and say they don't need faith, and if you don't for sure know the answer, than it is an act of faith, sound familiar to many aspects of Atheism. It is basically the religion of the individual as God…

  84. and to continue…when you say Christians are not persecuted, I think you need to explain the thousands of examples, not just disproving 2 far fetched ones, I find that section disrespectful, and fyi, many of the founding fathers, if not all of them, were christians… 0.o

  85. Funny, i bet u believe history books to be more than myth or fiction, but u dont believe in the Bible which references jesus who is reference in history outside the Bible… Not getting what you want does not mean there is no God… Find one thing that truly dispoves the Bible…. There is nothing that disproves the Bible that has not beem disproven over time…

    • In history today, our teacher threw out all these weird theories pertaining to human evolution, my view is one of ID, so I sort of agree, but I don't see how people just eat this stuff up without question, while the bible and such are "refuted" almost instantly without clear judgement

  86. I was raised in a Christian family but started to question this supposed “God” at about 10, by 12 I was openly atheistic. If I was able to understand that god was just a santa clause for adults whom instead of your parents fufilling the fantasy, it is your own clouded delusional mind fufilling what you think is god trying to help you. I am sickened every day by theists who think their better and smartter than me. I’m now 13 and if you think that adult christians are pretty bad at arguing than you couldn’t possibly fathom how bad kids are at it. I’m an Atheist and i’m proud of it. I’ve spent two hours reading this page to find no valid arguments coming from anyone but the atheists, and it’s not like hate god, have problems with the church, or hate the people associated with it, I’ve just spent years of my life pondering the mysteries of the universe, and i think, no I’m almost positive that I’ve made the right call.

    • Try to follow along…

      There are good reasons to believe that God exists.

      There are no good reasons to believe that God does not exist.

      A1) The origin of the universe

      The universe began to exist
      If the universe began to exist, then the universe has a transcendent(as in, not a material) cause.
      The universe has a transcendent cause.
      The origin of the universe is confirmed by philosophical arguments and scientific evidence.

      There cannot be an actual infinite number of past events, because mathematical operations like subtraction and division cannot be applied to actual infinities. (If you have an infinite row of coins, one is red, the other blue, the other red, the other blue, and this goes on and on, and you subtract every red coin, you still have an infinite number of blue coins. Again, if you subtract every coin numbered higher than three, you still have an infiniy of coins. Actual infinities can only exist in the human mind and in the supernatural. Otherwise, mathematical operations on actual infinities will lead to metaphysical absuridities.)

      The Borde-Guth-Vilenkin (BGV) proof shows that every universe that expands must have a space-time boundary in the past. That means that no expanding universe, regardless of the model, can be eternal into the past.

      Even speculative alternative cosmologies do not escape the need for a beginning.

      The cause of the universe must be transcendent and supernatural. It must be uncaused, because there cannot be an infinite regress of causes. (If infinity exists, then there is an infinite number of past events, and if this is the case one would have to traverse every past event to arrive to the present. That would take an infinity to do, and yet, here we are…) It must be eternal, because it created time. It must be non-physical, because it created space. There are only two possibilities for such a cause. It could be an abstract object (like a number or a shape) or an agent. Abstract objects cannot cause effects (this is philosophically backed). Therefore, the cause must be an agent.

      A2) The fine-tuning of the universe

      The fine-tuning of the universe is either due to law, chance or design.
      It is not due to law or chance.(Law, because we have NO evidence for the claim that fine-tuning is due to law. On the claim of chance, this is where atheists who claim to lack faith are proven wrong, and this is only one point; The odds of life occuring on earth, according to a book by two scientists which has not, to the best of my knowledge been refuted till this day, is roughly 10 to the 40,000th power. It is so unlikey that the sun would have ceased to be a main sequence star, as just one of the events required by a naturalistic explanation. To illustrate, thats roughly 10 atoms in a space the size of the universe. Quite a lot of faith, no?)
      Therefore, it is ALMOST CERTAINLY due to design.
      The progress of science has revealed that the Big Bang was fine-tuned to allow for the existence of intelligent life.

      Type 1: Constants like the gravitational constant are finely-tuned, and are not dependent on the laws of physics.

      Type 2: Quantities like the amount of entropy in the universe, are not dependent on the laws of physics.

      The range of life-permitting values is incredibly small compared to the possible values of the constants and quantities. (Like having a lottery with a million black balls and one white ball, and you pick the white ball. Even though each individual ball has the same tiny chance of being picked, but the odds are overwhelming that the whichever ball you pick will be black, and not white).

      Not only are the numbers not due to laws, but they are not due to chance either. It’s not just that the settings are unlikely, it’s that they are unlikely and they conform to an independent pattern – namely, the ability to support complex life.

      A3) The moral argument

      If God does not exist, then OBJECTIVE( different from subjective, which many atheists call upon. For example, genocide would more or less be considered wrong, but to the community of Nazi Germany, it was A-okay. Before bringing up Kant and the rest, remember that even if it is objective to all of humanity, we are subjective by nature, to nature.) moral values do not exist.
      Objective morality does exist ( Although this can be debated by some seriouusly demented people…).
      Therefore, God exists.
      Objective moral values are values that exist independently of whether any humans believe them or not.

      Michael Ruse, an atheist philosopher agrees that if God does not exist, then there is only a “herd morality” that is determined by biological evolution and social evolution. There is no objective moral standard, just different customs and conventions that vary by time and place. Anyone who acts against the herd morality is merely being unfashionable and unconventional. On the atheistic view, there is nothing objective and binding about this evolved “herd morality”. However, people do experience objective moral values, and these cannot be grounded in atheism.

      Furthermore, God must exist in order to argue that there is evil in the world. In order to be able to make a distinction between good and evil that is objective, there has to be a God to determine a standard of good and evil that is binding regardless of the varying customs and conventions of different people groups. Even when a person argues against God’s existence by pointing to the “evil” in the world, they must assume objective moral values, and a God who grounds those objective moral values.

      A4) The resurrection of Jesus.

      There are certain minimal facts that are admitted by the majority of historians, across the ideological spectrum: the empty tomb, the appearances and the early belief in the resurrection.
      Naturalistic attempts to explain these minimal facts fail.
      The best explanation of these facts is that Jesus rose from the dead.
      A5) Religious experience (On this, I would suggest Josh McDowells book, The Evidence That Demands A Verdict, which more or less puts an end to questions regarding the ressurection, and confronts views like the Swoon Theory, or The Stolen Body, etc…)

      People can know that God exists through experience. In the absence of defeaters for these experiences, these experiences constitute evidence for God’s existence.

      ( This was especially posted for you, young one. The first thing you must understand is the difference between God and between what people (Be it heavily biased and unread men and women who fall into the catagory of atheist, or Jehovas witnesses, or the Mormons, or Bhuddists, or whatever) call God, or what attributes they falsey imply onto Him. As in, the first thing to do before beginning any serious debate or assertion of a claim, is to DEFINE TERMS. A philosopher should not say, for example, that all green cars are better than blue cars, if he has not defined what the term (better) actually implies. Does it drive smoother, or is it more gas efficient, or what?
      Ive got to say that I am impressed that you are learning at such an early age! I respect that, but I will also say this, anybody who claims to be a Christian or a Believer in the Judeo-Christian God, and treats you with contempt because of your worldview, is a sorry excuse for a liar. Also, on the point of the stupidity of your peers, stick through it! I was in a similar situation for a long time, but if you are worthy of recognition, and you expose yourself, you will probably be recognized. When I was in highschool and I was being taught Darwinism, I challenged my teacher with certain points of conflict. He could not respond, and eventually asked if he could come by my house to have dinner with my family and talk about God. Lo and behold he is an outspoken Theist now. My point is, that from that event came the recognition I was talking about, because before I finished my sophomore year of highschool, I had been invited to take afternoon classes at a local seminary on special permission. This seminary is for graduate students, and I truly flourished there. You will also have your chance to flourish, but be wise, and make the right decision, so that you dont end up singing the blues like Oscar Wilde and Antony Flew and another philosopher who I wont mention by name because his worldview might just be too much for a young person like you to survive. His story is this; he was an outspoken extestentialist philospher who lost his mind because of the absurdities involved with living life without a purpose. When this occured he went to an insane asylum for the remainder of his life which was over a decade long. He would be quite for weeks at a time, and then suddenly start blurting out verses of the Bible, which he had rejected his whole life. There are misconceptions blocking the way for many people, like the idea that the Bible preaches Six Day Creationism, or that Evolution, (not Darwinism in its primary sense which is rooted in materialism) cannot coexist with God. The Bible doesnt actually say how long the world and universe has existed, or if special creation is a requirement. Keep up learning. (Blessed is the man who finds understanding, for She is more profitable than silver, and yeilds better returns than gold.)

    • Interesting theory. Could you support your proposition that God created all evil as a test, using Scripture? Or are you just tossing out ideas that seem to make sense to you?

    • [2.155] We shall test you with something of fear and hunger,
      and decrease of goods, life and fruits. Give glad tidings to
      the patient,

      113 Daybreak −Al−Falaq
      In the Name of Allah, the Merciful, the Most Merciful
      [113.1] Say: 'I take refuge with the Lord of Daybreak
      [113.2] from the evil of what He has created,
      [113.3] from the evil of the darkness when it gathers
      [113.4] from the evil of the blowers on knots;
      [113.5] from the evil of the envier when he envies. '

    • Probo Rahadianto – While those are from the Qur'an and thus not Scripture referencing God but instead referencing "Allah", they don't answer the question anyway of evidence that God (or "Allah") created evil as a test.

    • WHich is funny as a contradiction of the christian god, as he says he will never test man, then immediately contradicts himself. And if such, if god had an ultimate plan for us, he already knows the answer. Why did he bother testing us anyways? not to mention if he had an ultimate plan, where is our free will?

    • The definition of evil, is the absence of good, so in a sense, God didn't create evil, but evil is just the absence of God.

    • I was under the impression that God was omnipresent, meaning that there is no "absence of God," and by your logic, no evil, which is a flawed view of the world.

    • no, it is not that he isn't "there" it is the absence of his good, here's a quote that gets the point across better "Evil is a word that man has created to describe the absence of God. God did not create evil. Evil is the result of what happens when man does not have God’s love present in his heart.” I read somewhere in the comments that thinks we have no free will, but actually the choice to do evil (the opposite of God) is one example. Going back to the absence thing. Think of it like this. Darkness isn't a tangible thing, but it is the absence of a tangible object, light. (as in photons). Finally this quote sums up what I am trying to say, although in relation to satan, " What Satan does is very real. It is evil. What Satan does is not an absence of God, it is an absence of obedience to God." That is more of what I was trying to say.

  87. I for one, loved the article. I also recognize it says “….reasons I am an atheist”…..NOT ….”reasons YOU should become an atheist”. I am another on the fence Christian, I have been there for years. I told my sister the other night that if I understood science better, I’d probably become an atheist, which led me to google, which led me to this article. In my opinion, all of the arguments for atheism are sound, and valid. In reading the counter “arguments”, I was reminded of the Jehovah’s witnesses that came to my door, telling me all of their reasons why I was going to hell, and when I opened my eyes, I saw they made no sense either.

    I DO understand that a Christian’s argument is going to come from the bible…..The issue I don’t think they are understanding, is that they may as well be reading from a book about flying purple unicorns and trying to convince people they exist because the book says so. I don’t believe in flying purple unicorns….Show me bones…fossils….a unicorn horn…purple fur….But don’t repeatedly tell me they exist because they are only documented in that one book ever.

    The same with God….Jesus….etc. There needs to be physical evidence….Or even documented evidence outside of the bible. I understand faith….I have never seen France, but I know it’s there because other people have seen it, it’s documented. But I don’t have faith that the tooth fairy exists. Why? Because there is no evidence.

  88. I am not sure if I can call myself an atheist just yet, I am struggling with the idea of how everything came to be. Many atheists and scientist have said that things just came to exist but I find this hard to believe.
    The way I came to doubt Christianity was when I asked a friend of mine (who is a devout Christian) about the whole idea of hell. I asked her what would happen (hypothetically speaking), if I ended up in heaven and my son who I love so dearly ended up in hell? I tried to explain to my friend that I do not see myself living happily in heaven knowing that my son is in hell; her response to this was that it should not bother me because when we get to heaven we will have no memory of this life. I thought to myself then what is the point then, why go through all this?
    I cannot imagine how Christians reconcile this, how are you going to feel when you are in heaven and some of your loved ones are in hell?

    • Hey, I cant go into an in depth response to your statement, I will only tell you that what your friend, the devout Christian said, is completely unbiblical. Just rest assured that you dont have to reconcile that to your beliefs. And what you mentioned about the problem of how everything came to be, is called Ex Nihilo, which means from nothing. And dont worry, even atheists like Dawkins and Hitchens, and Dennet, cannot offer up a suitable reply. They mostly shrug their shoulder and state that they dont know how it happened. But that is not an argument. Hell is not eternal, but it was fabricated by certain churches to use as kind of scare tactic to gain followers quickly. A perfectly Just God, will not punish someone with an infinite punishment, for a finite crime. If you are in hell, well call it that, and you commit another crime, you may get sentenced to a few years or months of hell, d if you commit more crimes during that time, you will get more time added. Therefore hell can be infinite, but only if one allows it. Yes I know what apostrophies are but i am currently out of the US and using a strange laptop :)

  89. if god exists, he’s an asshole.

    i stopped being christian, when a christian friend of mine said that a good friend of ours would be going to hell since he’s an atheist. i rather be in hell with my good friend, than be heaven where there’s an off chance of HITLER being there.

    ricky gervais > jesus christ < santa claus

  90. Anyone who is trying to counter this article should read the last paragraph, debating is useless as no one wants to admit when they're wrong, but you should debate with your own views. This was the sentiment of the whole article.

  91. In your section "The origin of all religions is clear" I noticed a flaw. You state that God is a creation of man, but then how did one people decide to be monotheistic in a world of polytheistic civilizations. later you state that God throws temper tantrums, may I point out that you sir, are having a temper tantrum with God! I would love to argue this for hours, but I am not the one who can change your heart, or any atheists heart for that matter.

    • I know this idea of worshiping only one God must've been impossible for people to come up with on their own. People are so dumb. They never try anything different. Also, calmly rejecting a belief is not a temper tantrum. Obliterating whole cities because they make you angry. That's a temper tantrum. Your just as bad as those people who accuse people who point out hatred of hatred themselves. Criticism is not hatred or throwing a temper tantrum.

  92. All I read was personal reasons for disbelief.But hey, will I sit here and thrash this entire season of comments? I feel sorry for the author of this article – not to throw the usual “you’re just mad at God” argument at him, but for the fact that his mind has been yanked into a fallacious paradigm with mixed up identities. And as eloquently as he might have voiced his stance, it is but another sect of naturalist propaganda “anti-religion religion” quest nonetheless. He will now HAVE TO lend his mind to a circular understanding of causality. And as for “willing but unable, or willing and able, or not willing and able, or even not willing and unable” Then what would God be if we were choice-less drones who can not formulate an opinion or be different from each other? Wouldn’t that make him a malevolent puppeteer? What would he be if we couldn’t be either “good” or “bad”? Woulnd’t he be a controlling overlord? You have a choice today, satan had his choice: the key is choice – that exists through a coexisting balance called Good & Evil. Go, ask any child, would they rather have a choice to be who they want to be, or to be locked up and forced to be what their parents want them to be.

    You can talk to me on facebook…
    Chris Napier

  93. It takes so much effort to be an atheist. Think about the daily suppression you'd have to be doing. Think about how repeatedly you'd have to spank yourself for believing the universe has a cause other than itself. That seems like an awful lot of faith, even more faith spewing from Lawrence Krauss's quantum poetry. Bye hey, atheism must be the new cool thing to do these days…people are doing it everywhere. Atheism is the new faith drug!
    Aha! look, they'll even gather around and stone God if he'd let them.

    • There is no faith required to expect evidence for a claim, Chris.

      There is also no faith required to say “I don’t know exactly how the universe was formed”.

      Conversely, it requires boundless faith and no small arrogance to say, “I know, without evidence, exactly how the universe was formed. I know, without evidence, that its first cause was a deity nobody has seen, which cannot be proven to exist, and which created itself.”

    • The same could be said for forcing yourself daily not to believe in Santa Claus. Tell me, do you sometimes have to spank yourself for occasionally believing that a fat, bearded man in a red suit is delivering toys to all the children of the world in one night? How else could all of those presents gotten there if it wasn't Santa? Golly, not believing in stuff is hard work, isn't it?

    • Santa clause? Oh you must be new here…"a fat bearded man" Okay. Anything that is "human" that travels so fast around the globe will be immediately incinerated.. As a matter of fact, the moment the reindeer take off will create a nasty explosion. Secondly, how is santa clause omnipotent? what do you have to say for the fact if you stalk a parent who teaches their children about santa, you'll find that they are the ones purchasing the gifts 100% of the time…..
      Also, let us not pretend that Santa is a divinity. Because the identity of this "santa character" revolves around the existence of people. What was santa doing before people came into play? Annually delivering carbon to the planets? With reindeer that don't exist yet? Okay! Yeah, this santa is some hard work.!

  94. You are a vile filthy unbeliever, worthy of an unending torture in burning fire. Repent and be baptized friend lest God's sanctified sadism becomes your plight!

    • What proof do you have of us being burnt in an ever-burning fire (not to mention the immediate problems that throws up with Thermodynamics

  95. Rereading this, I came to the section where it states, "Science, it has been pointed out, is not perfect and doesn’t have all the answers. However, it does have a method for obtaining answers, whereas religion simply claims answers without having ever done any of the work to get there. Science starts with the idea that we do not know something and then tries to figure it out. Religion starts with the arrogant assumption that we know God exists and therefore must base all our knowledge on that idea." Now I know you guys think Science has all the answers, it actually does not. When we learn something new, and this is often stated, we have more questions then what we started with. The more we learn, the more we also don't know. On top of that, Science doesn't explain why things happen, it just describes them. Taking the laws of thermodynamics, or gravity, or anything like that. Laws are things we have the most faith in to be right, but we don't know why their right. Science can tell me that more mass means more gravity, but it can't tell me why. Religion can though. I know that their is a God who is running the universe (his creation). The highly ordered universe we live in, goes hand in hand with my Idea, whereas it contradicts that the universe somehow popped into existence on its own accord, because as the aforementioned laws of dynamics, especially the second one, would bring about either a universe of hydrogen gas, or a universe that re collapses into a singularity. The next time you say science gives us answers, remember that these answers don't tell us why things happen, but that they are just descriptions of what things happened.

    • They're and there. However, Will has valid points; especially his last statement regarding purpose.

      I am curious if anyone here has read the theories of Penrose and Hameroff regarding consciousness.

    • True laws are things we have the most faith in to be right, but the reason for this faith is that we are able to explain what is going on and why it's going on. Due to relativity, things that are denser have more gravity because they bend space-time more, and the Universe is not highly ordered, humans look on it in a perspective that is highly ordered. The universe did not simply pop into existence, that is more a religious view of the Universe, it started out as a tiny ball that inflated cooling down as it did so in accord to all laws we know.

  96. You have been responded to, please provide sufficient arguments against Gods existence, and not personal attacks or opinions. If you attack the Theistic claim because your parents were fundamentalists who made your life miserable, or any of the other TYPICAL atheist experiences, please leave that aside and debate. Do not commit the genetic fallacy, or you will be softly chuckled against.

  97. Great, great article. I believed in God before as well, but not any more. And you know what, knowing that there is no God feels good. Some people don’t understand that. But if you think about that we, humans, are here on the earth, able to do good things and make the world a better place without a creature above us which can make all our efforts in vain, or could prevent everything from happening, how could that be a nice thought? Of course, if you believe, he could do good things, but so far I haven’t seen any real good things – except the improvement science and philosophy – happening in the last millenia.

    And another thing that I would like to understand, is the reason why people believe in an afterlife. For one thing that I think people forget, is that if there’s an afterlife, there’s no death. There is no ending. Your will keep on living for ever, till the end of time and after, like you are God himself. And you will never escape, always keep on living. Try to imagine that. For me, a God who does that to his people, really is a malevolent one.

  98. I liked this comment because I was one of the Christians until I studied up on Bible, different religions. It encourages People to be content and just shut up , don't rock the Boat. I am at peace now and feel great that any help I can give comes from my heart , not from a Phantom.
    Religion is holding back medical and scientific progress. it makes people lethargic and do nothing about some ones Plight.The believers figure a prayer fixes everything. Its a easy way out instead of real Hands on.

    • That's why our founding fathers put the 'separation of church and state' in the Constitution. However, anymore, it is difficult to tell if you'r in church or in Congress. A sad state of affairs.

  99. God is true! don't ever give nonsense comments about Him. if not because of Him, you guys are not here. may Godbless you peole!

  100. “Other Religions Exist”

    Other theories exist, doesn’t make the truth any less valid.

    “Faith is Rewarded to the Same Degree as Disbelief”

    YHWH(The Father and The Son and The Holy Spirit) not answering your prayer doesn’t disprove His existence.

    “You can only disprove something by showing how the proof of it is not valid.”

    Actually no, you disprove something… by disproving it, for example I can disprove that gravity takes us off the ground by proving that it pulls us off the ground, lack of evidence is not Evidence of Absence, if there’s a lack of evidence to begin with.

    “If he were really the author of the Bible, it would probably be much less full of atrocities, contradictions, plagiarisms and absurdities. ”

    Even if what you said is true, still doesn’t disprove The Bible, contradictions actually authenticate the text, for example The Majority of The Bible has YHWH being Love, interpolations/contradictions sited do not even make up a book of the 66 Historical Books in The Bible, even if it was 30 books, still wouldn’t be enough, as Logically and in Literary Criticism whatever contradicts the Majority is a an interpolation and not the authors intent nor what text is about.

    “I know so many Christians who can’t see how awful the Bible and God really are, and those that can see it make excuses for it. “That’s just the Old Testament!””

    The same Old Testament where YHWH never harms the innocent, where He floods the world for being EVIL(don’t know where atheist get that infants and children were flooded too, isn’t in the text), how He is longsuffering(please don’t bring up interpolated text out of the Majority of Him being longsuffering, doesn’t work in Literary Criticism/History), Read Hosea 3, Ezekiel 18, 33, Genesis, Leviticus 19:18(Love Thy Neighbor as Thyself, and please do not bring up Israelite only laws, “say unto The Israelites” – YHWH) and TRY to tell me The Old Testament is evil,

    YHWH/Jesus Christ created, Love Thy Neighbor as Thyself, Leviticus 19:18 and Matthew 22, the BASIS of the law(so if it goes against this principle there’s either interpolation or mistranslation/misreading)

    Matthew 7:12

    “Science is Obviously Better”

    You don’t need Creationist Website to disprove Evolution, most aren’t even Christian, ESPECIALLY The Anti-Gay ones(

    #1, One Species has never been obeserved to evolve into a New/Different Species. you can bring up micro-evolution, and it’s observations all it proves is that a species adapts to it’s enviroment and stays the same species, unless One Species can been observed in a Lab to have evolved into a New/Different Species, Evolution remains a mere idea.

    #2, Shroud of Turin, Carbon Testing was false, it’s Authentic.

    #3, DNA Demonstrates an Intelligent Coding, and NOTE(because I don’t want anyone ignoring this and bringing it up as if it’s argument against it), do not bring up mutations, because I’ll refute it now, Death exist, Death is Nonfunction, the process to death is slow and stuble, the process is Disfunction(what we call dying) as when a Function breaks down and goes to disfunction.

    Mutation is a disfunction due to death.

    “The Origins of All Religions are Clear: The first man to invent religion obviously looked up at the sky and said, “I have no idea how all this got here. I made this hut, and this fire, and this wagon, and I tamed this wild dog, and so whatever made the sky must be something very similar to me, only much more powerful.””

    Assumption, not proof.

    “They never saw how I wept over “lost souls.” They never listened to my preaching, which I swore didn’t come from me as I was always terrified right before I stepped up to the pulpit and became strong as the words seemed to flow from the Holy Spirit. These people don’t know that I was exactly like them, and the only difference between us is that I dared to question my faith.”

    Which The Bible says to do, 1 Thessalonians 5:21 0- Test all Things Hold to that which is Good.

    problem is that when you tested it, and found it True(romans 1:20) you denied it, instead of being free you choose oppression and call atheism freedom, Homosexuality isn’t a sin in Christianity, it is in Atheism( )

    “Religion is Destructive”

    No it doesn’t, False Religions and man’s opinion do, look at what Stalin did, killed 20 million people

    “Christians Don’t Really Get Persecuted”

    1St Century Martyrdom, also even if true, How is this proof against YHWH? If you say because Jesus Christ said Christians would be persecuted then this is faulty, as He never said all Christians will and those who claimed to be, are probably not.

  101. “Evil Exists in the World”

    Why it is Immoral for God(YHWH) not to directly allow then stop suffering.

    Now before we start key words, Directly and Indirectly.

    Directly prevent means, God(YHWH: The Father, and The Son, and The Holy Spirit) prevents suffering by appearing.

    Indirectly means He prevents or ends suffering Indirectly but through human beings or other resources which wouldn’t break free will.

    God is YHWH(Who is The Father, and The Son, and The Holy Spirit) and this a fact that I’ll debate anyone against, so for all those of other religions I consider you “atheist”‘s for rejecting The Real God(YHWH: The Father, The Son, and The Holy Spirit)

    Lets get straight desert with the point,

    2 Scenario’s,

    Scenario 1:

    I prevent person A from tripping, and because of that a majority of humanity dies and Person A never learns to watch their step

    Scenario 2, I allow someone to trip, they learn from that and because of allowing it someone else lives.

    Which is immoral, 1 or 2? Obvious 1, I should have allowed a person A to trip for 2 reasons, 1 to prevent this person from tripping again as this person will learn from this accident to watch his step, and 2, others get to live.

    Now that was just a Scenario to make the Real examples easy to understand.

    Example 1, God(YHWH: The Father, and The Son, and The Holy Spirit) allows finite suffering, the suffering prevents the sufferer from ever doing evil as they learn evil causes what they hated which was suffering(thus living with YHWH for eternity) and another person gets to live as they can repent.

    Example 2, God prevents finite suffering, The Sufferer doesn’t learn from suffering thus somewhere in eternity sins and causes more suffering, by the prevention Free Will is broken, and others cannot repent, thus for the prevention of this finite suffering, someone dies for all eternity and never gets a chance at Eternal life.

    Which is moral and which is immoral? If you are a Moral person then obvious Example 1 is Moral and 2 is Immoral,

    what does this have to do with Theodicy?

    Well if God(YHWH: The Father, and The Son, and The Holy Spirit) allows someone to suffer, that person experiences suffering, why is that a good thing? well by experiencing the suffering, and knowing that sin causes suffering, if the person when they reach Heaven/The New Earth, since they know they have it all(In Heaven) and know how it is to suffer, they will not sin again, and thus suffering is ended for all eternity

    So right there is it Moral for God(YHWH: The Father, The Son, and The Holy Spirit) to allow suffering, as this would prevent them from sinning, thus allowing them to live for eternity, and preventing further evil(Lack of good, suffering, Sin)

    Also by allowing suffering free will isn’t broken, if God(YHWH) prevents a finite suffer, then He must appear, if He appears an evil person can never truly repent, as they would never be sorry but just wanting God(Imagine n evil mobster, never repents, isn’t sorry for his evil, then Jesus Christ appears and he acts all sorry, eg, Matthew 7:22-23, Jesus Christ “Many will say to me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name and in your name drive out demons and in your name perform many miracles?’ Then I will tell them plainly, ‘I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!'”), and if that evil person cannot repent they will be judged to eternal punishment(Annihilation).

    1 Fact we know as True, when Jesus Christ returns to Save us, our past suffering won’t be a big deal,

    Romans 8 –
    Present Suffering and Future Glory
    18 I consider that our present sufferings are not worth comparing with the glory that will be revealed in us. 19 For the creation waits in eager expectation for the children of God to be revealed. 20 For the creation was subjected to frustration, not by its own choice, but by the will of the one who subjected it, in hope 21 that[h] the creation itself will be liberated from its bondage to decay and brought into the freedom and glory of the children of God.
    22 We know that the whole creation has been groaning as in the pains of childbirth right up to the present time. 23 Not only so, but we ourselves, who have the firstfruits of the Spirit, groan inwardly as we wait eagerly for our adoption to sonship, the redemption of our bodies. 24 For in this hope we were saved. But hope that is seen is no hope at all. Who hopes for what they already have? 25 But if we hope for what we do not yet have, we wait for it patiently.
    26 In the same way, the Spirit helps us in our weakness. We do not know what we ought to pray for, but the Spirit himself intercedes for us through wordless groans. 27 And he who searches our heartsknows the mind of the Spirit, because the Spirit intercedes for God’s people in accordance with the will of God.
    28 And we know that in all things God works for the good of those who love him, who[i] have been called according to his purpose. 29 For those God foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brothers and sisters. 30 And those he predestined, he also called; those he called, he also justified; those he justified, he also glorified.

    Revelation 21:4 – ‘He will wipe every tear from their eyes. There will be no more death’[a] or mourning or crying or pain,for the old order of things has passed away.”

    Now since all the suffering will be like a pinch, why then should someone else die for all eternity because one couldn’t suffer? if one suffers finite, then they will not sin ever again, live happily for eternity(if they repent), and another can repent of their sin and evil.

    How is allowing suffering and THEN ending it, evil? I would argue Not Allowing and then ending it is evil, God has to allow finite suffering until a right time, and then end it(Second Coming of Jesus Christ) all at once.

    So if God(YHWH: The Father, The Son, and The Holy Spirit) directly allows suffering(doesn’t cause but allows), He creates an Eternity for them and their free will as they won’t ever sin again, allows others the chance to Repent due to His mercy thus allowing Eternal life for them, and ends Suffering for All Eternity.

    If God prevents finite suffering(say for example rape), then another person cannot repent and will cease to exist for forever, that potential rape victim will eventually sin and potentially never repent thus also dying, and suffering will go on in a cycle forever and ever.

    It is therefore Immoral for God(YHWH: The Father, and The Son, and The Holy Spirit) to Directly prevent suffering and Moral for God(YHWH) to Directly allow and the end(all at once) suffering.

    Also we could argue that God by not directly preventing suffering doesn’t really allow suffering since The Suffering will only be finite and be like a pinch(as Paul said it’s not worthy to compare), also God doesn’t Really allow suffering, He just directly doesn’t prevent it, He Indirectly(one of the key words) prevents it through humanity(The Father, and The Son and The Holy Spirit is The One that causes one to do good)

    So recap, God is Moral for directly allowing suffering for these reasons,

    1, it prevents the sufferer from ever sinning again when Saved, thus allowing them to live eternally and preventing suffering for all eternity(and the cycle of it)

    2, allows another to repent as free will wouldn’t be broken by the prevention and the person can repent, they repent and live forever, thus it is moral to allow finite suffering(which will be no big deal one day) so that the sufferer and another person live forever with God(YHWH: The Father, and The Son, and The Holy Spirit), without suffering, sin, and death, and this is Directly in line with The Bible, watch this,

    2 Corinthians 4:17
    For this light momentary affliction is preparing for us an eternal weight of glory beyond all comparison

    Now keep this in mind, as Jesus Christ our Lord and God(YHWH) said,

    “A woman giving birth to a child has pain because her time has come; but when her baby is born she forgets the anguish because of her joy that a child is born into the world.”

    Now that is WHILE we are in suffering and the suffering feels bad, now imagine no more death, suffering, pain, etc, and the suffering was no big deal, and it prevents you from sinning and suffering, and it allows another to repent and live forever.

    It is therefore proven to be Immoral if God(YHWH: The Father, and The Son, and The Holy Spirit) prevents suffering directly(by appearing) and is Moral for God(YHWH) to directly allow and then end all suffering.

    We one the other hand have an obligation to prevent suffering as if we allow suffering, then we cause evil as we allowing it has no benefit, while if God(YHWH: The Father, and The Son, and The Holy Spirit) allows suffering all He gives is the benefits listed above, and if He prevents it He causes suffering.

    Jesus Christ is no doubt The LORD(YHWH),

    Theodicy has been given, Problem of Suffering is solved and “atheism” has no arguments.

    Now since God(YHWH: The Father, The Son, and The Holy Spirit) has an infinite amount of possible reasons to allow suffering, and this is at least the Very Least reason, which is completely possible and valid, this therefore means if this ain’t the reason then there is another and better reason being used.

    I Thank YHWH who is The Father, and The Son, and The Holy Spirit for giving me OCD and allowing that suffering as it enables me to seek Him(YHWH) and His Word(The Bible) which causes me(By The Power of The Holy Spirit) to refute “atheism” completely and has caused me to answer The Problem which has caused so many to stumble, The Problem of Suffering.

    Now that it is solved no one has an excuse.

  102. The Israelites faith failed when God’s VISIBLE PRESENCE was with them during the exodus and wanderings. So its not surprising to me that anyone can become atheistic. It is human nature to desire to depend on oneself instead of turning everything over to a deity. In fact the Bible predicts that mankind will continue to drift further and further from the Creator as time goes on. Man either believes the Bible is God’s inerrant Word or he doesnt, there is no middle ground. And God’s inerrant Word says there will always be a remnant of believers. So the Bible predicts believers will be the vast minority as mankind continues to turn to science, human reasoning, philosophy, etc. These are just modern day idols for atheists just like back in OT days when people worshiped graven images. Science is a graven image to be worshiped. So when I see essays like the above it actually verifies for me that the Bible truly is His inerrant Word since more and more people are turning to intellectualism and self-betterment as gods in place of our Creator. Its a Bible prophecy that is continually being fulfilled. I have no great argument to sway atheists to believe the Bible. They have chosen their path with the gift God has given to all, free will. Gods grace is a free gift also and gifts can be returned unopened, which atheists choose on their own to do. I am not surprised when anyone becomes an atheist because of the Israelite example above.It’s a free will choice and I will never judge or hate someone because they do not believe what I have chosen to believe.

  103. I’ll pray for you brother. Maybe you need to see if you were not in sin and a man of God that praying must believe, because if you do not believe that God will do, then yes you wasting your time. Make peace with God and He will show you the way. God bless you.

  104. Face reality, people. There ain’t no God. I became an atheist not because I was against God or Jesus Christ… If so, I would be an “Anti-christ” not an atheist…

    You people, has been delusional since that time. If only I could invent a time machine and take videos on the past 6000 years, I would show it to you and tell you the f*cking truth…

    Oh damn… I don’t wanna argue with dumb people…

    But lemme ask you this… First…

    And he said to her, “I am the resurrection. Whoever believes in me even if he dies, will still have life.” John 11:25

    oh, I know some bible verses… well, I just watch that movie to “entertain” myself… now, going back to that… After we die, we live an eternal life… What good would it get? live for another million years just being peaceful? that’s impossible…

    the reason why I became an atheist is this… First:
    Before God created the heavens and the earth… “LET THERE BE LIGHT”…. Before that, what the hell was there? don’t tell me that God just was there for the past billion years, trillion, quadrillion, pentillion, hexillion…. INFINITY… doing nothing … oh demn…

    now, explain it to me!

    second one: why did God “created” us? Then flush us out just because we did something wrong? It’s like creating a program and just delete those that are corrupt…

    If he’s the only creator, where the hell did Satan came from? How did “evil” exist when God is “good”? -_-

    saying that, it’s like I’m making myself into a God-hater,,, I ain’t even giving a shit about that…

    And another reason why I’m an atheist…
    SCIENCE… yeh… Science all the way!

    As he^ said, Science came from nothing and collect facts to get something while religion is being there and use that Idea to get something… that’s bullsh*t…
    Now, for the Science, I also think… What was there before the Big Bang? I also theorize that … being not the only Planet with life… there are other planets that has exist for the past billions and trillions and infinity years… I mean, we are just natural occurence… We are nothing… Think about if nothing existed… As in NOTHING… No planets, no stars, no everything… What is there? That’s always the thought that cycles in my mind… And what if everything ends? If God exists, what will be there when he disappears? What? what? WHAT? NOTHINGNESS… and it’s worse than Chaos…

    That’s reality for you… If we had eternal peace, It’s pointless… I tell you!

    • nothingness, real and true nothingness is actually unstable. this has been proven and is quite astonishing. you can take all particles literally everything out of a section of space and in time there would be something, “nothing” is actually physically impossible. please watch and especially that second one is quite lengthy but will help you understand some of the things any atheist should probably understand about the universe. I will also add the theory that there is no beginning to matter at all, it has always existed it is impossible for matter to not exist therefore it just does, in many different forms and laws of physics, drawn out in the multiverse theory. its hard to imagine no beginning but thats quantam mechanics and string theory etc. at its finest. Matter just exists, thats a fact, its impossible for it to not exist meaning there is no beginning, for our universe maybe there was a beginning but then what started the multiverse? nothing because matter has and always will exist, which when you think about it is very chilling and i lose lots of sleep over that contemplation

  105. Though shalt not kill umm ok but then Demands Human Sacrifice makes sense.

    These Gullible Religious personnel will always say it depends on how you interpret it, well you interpret the words use a dictionary and understand the wording, but all you Muslims, Christians and Jews will all say never misinterpreted the words ha ha of course.

    I come from a strong Christian Family, my Dad disowned me as a child but then came back into my life as an adult but it’s Ok because God forgives all sins, this will make people do barbaric things but still ask for forgiveness and feel at ease again.
    Religion is for people who don’t ask questions I mean the strong believers the others just believe it because their parent told them it’s true, they don’t pray, they don’t go to church but to them that’s good enough not to go to hell.

    My beautiful Little girl 2yrs and Boy 10months if they for a horrific accident happened they wouldn’t go to Heaven that’s just sick instead they’d go to a place called Limbo, in between heaven and hell, it’s just pathetic, I actually hate Religion it causes wars,segregation because of beliefs and wars, OPEN YUR EYES PEOLE, the world ain’t going to get any better, we need to have peace and religion ain’t peaceful, the bible condones slavery if a person can’t pay you back therefore you can use that person as a slave, WHAT!!! Really but if your religious and have never read the bible you wouldn’t know because no ones going to tell you unless you read it yourself, no one knows about Mohammed married an 8yr old unless you read the quaran etc, if you read and understand the bible you’ll be ashamed of yourself for believing in such an oppressive religion.

    If you don’t want to read the bible then take a look at Christopher Hitchens an absolute legend of a man, he says it how it is and wins all of his debates as he’s read the old and New Testament and quaran also he’s an author which helps, anyway enough of this, if you want to believe in the supernatural then that’s fine but I hate to break it to you but the world ain’t a flat circle like a plate and the sun don’t orbit earth ha ha.

    And to all you Atheists well done you officially have a decent IQ because you’ve figured out there is no God and the people who do believe in God are either stupid, gullible, stubborn, arrogant or just can’t evaluate evidence correctly

  106. Ladies and Gentlemen

    Please stop and consider this:

    There was an American author, Upton Sinclair ,who said, ‘It is difficult to get a man to understand something, when his salary depends on his not understanding it.’. After years of frustration I had a saying for myself, “Never argue with a priest about the existence of god.” The meaning is the same just add, “emotional or intellectual security” to “salary”. So, “It is difficult(impossible) to get people to understand something when their salary or emotional or intellectual security depends on them not understanding it.” Your arguments will continue to be futile and eventually exhausting. In the name of, of… In the name of, of.. In the name of SANITY stop! Sit down, have a sip of your favorite beverage, kiss your wife or partner, your kids and/or pets and relax. The world will continue no matter who is right(Of course we are right! Right?)

  107. any believers out there should really take a step back and think for a second. after you have done that please start doing research about the world. it is so fulfilling to
    ACTUALLY know how the world works. ahhhhh this place is so beautiful and we only get a short amount of time to enjoy it and then we die. maybe there's an afterlife but until there is empirical evidence we cannot live our lives as if there is one. use what time you have on this wonderful planet (one of billions and billions btw) to actually live. to learn. to love. if you live your life so as to have a better afterlife then i am deeply sorry, i have actually been brought to tears at the thought of someone living their life for "God" or "Gods" or whatever. if there actually is a god he's not going to exclude you from "heaven" because you didn't believe, that god would have to be the most sadistic, unforgiving, unsympathetic prick in the universe (maybe he is, in which case we're all fucked anyways). You believe in this "god" because it gives you purpose but why do you need a purpose? All the evidence points to a universe in which there is no purpose (except that of which is human made such as a spoon's purpose is for eating soup and so on and so forth), i think it idiotic to look for "purpose" when there obviously isn't one. there isn't any need for one, life is just life, we are animals following the rules of natural selection. So just have fun with it, , i implore you to stop looking for a higher purpose and just live this life.
    This view of the world helps me cope with my depression, and the more i learn the more content i am with everything/everyone around me. Richard Dawkins, Christopher Hitchens, Jacque Fresco, Peter Joseph. these people i have just named will help to free you and open your eyes to the world around you. not to say if you believe you're an idiot, you are a product of you're environment and have come to believe what you believe not out of stupidity but trust in the wrong people. i trust empirical evidence, doesn't that make sense?

  108. any believers out there should really take a step back and think for a second. after you have done that please start doing research about the world. it is so fulfilling to
    ACTUALLY know how the world works. ahhhhh this place is so beautiful and we only get a short amount of time to enjoy it and then we die. maybe there’s an afterlife but until there is empirical evidence we cannot live our lives as if there is one. use what time you have on this wonderful planet (one of billions and billions btw) to actually live. to learn. to love. if you live your life so as to have a better afterlife then i am deeply sorry, i have actually been brought to tears at the thought of someone living their life for “God” or “Gods” or whatever. if there actually is a god he’s not going to exclude you from “heaven” because you didn’t believe, that god would have to be the most sadistic, unforgiving, unsympathetic prick in the universe (maybe he is, in which case we’re all fucked anyways). You believe in this “god” because it gives you purpose but why do you need a purpose? All the evidence points to a universe in which there is no purpose (except that of which is human made such as a spoon’s purpose is for eating soup and so on and so forth), i think it idiotic to look for “purpose” when there obviously isn’t one. there isn’t any need for one, life is just life, we are animals following the rules of natural selection. So just have fun with it, , i implore you to stop looking for a higher purpose and just live this life.
    This view of the world helps me cope with my depression, and the more i learn the more content i am with everything/everyone around me. Richard Dawkins, Christopher Hitchens, Jacque Fresco, Peter Joseph. these people i have just named will help to free you and open your eyes to the world around you. not to say if you believe you’re an idiot, you are a product of you’re environment and have come to believe what you believe not out of stupidity but trust in the wrong people. i trust empirical evidence, doesn’t that make sense?

  109. If we only believe purely on atheism;Ultimately, there would be no right and wrong.Why?Because in Atheist view, right & wrong is arbitrary. Right& wrong is what someone or a majority believes to be right/wrong.

    Atheist belief of creation is theory. Not facts. I would rather believe a theory that there is an Intelligent being who made me than a theory where everything just came out of nowhere for no reason at all.

    Human beings who are very intelligent can’t even create anything remotely close to the complexity & simplicity of a living creature.

    And yet an atheist believes that all this came from nowhere. They say that birth defects and ugliness in the world is proof that God does not exist. What is beautiful?What is ugly?Is it not just a subjective view of a human being.

    What is fair?If there is a God,why did He let these things happen?why did He let someone be born defective?Again why not ask yourself, is it because what you see & believe to be fair and good could be entirely different from what God sees as fair and good?

    If everyone would purely be atheist. There would be no morality.

    If we all believe that we came from nothing, that all living creatures started as one bacteria or whatever that is; then ultimately the value of every living creature will basically be the same. It is like, a man kills his children for garden compost and another man uses his cows’ feces for it is basically the same. Since everything came from nothing and started as the same thing.

    Pure atheism cannot exist in the real world. No matter how hard you try as an atheist; you will behave according to what you believe is moral/immoral during your present situation.

  110. Actually, not all religions are like you described in this quote: "Science starts with the idea that we do not know something and then tries to figure it out. Religion starts with the arrogant assumption that we know God exists and therefore must base all our knowledge on that idea."

    Buddhism (especially Zen) also starts with the idea that we do not know something, and then tries to figure it out. We do it by studying ourselves and our minds, specifically. And yes, Buddhism IS a religion, despite it being nonthiestic. If you go to a real dharma center or sangha, you will understand this,because it is in no way a philosophy or just an intellectual pursuit. (It is also not even the only nontheistic religion, just the biggest. I think it's really ethnocentric to assume that only those beliefs that deal with a god or gods can ever possibly be religion. To those who practice it, Buddhism can be just as important in their lives as Christianity is for others). Buddhism is not an intellectual, philosophical pursuit that many books out there might make you believe. It is a tangible religious practice that puts experience and observation before the dogma of what someone else tells you.

    Anyway, yeah, I know my way is not perfect but, I like it mostly BECAUSE it was the only religion I could find that really not just allowed questioning of beliefs and concepts of all types, but encouraged it.

    By the way, I am just curious, what made you decide to finally question your beliefs? Why did you actually start looking at them critically in the first place? For me, it was the realization that just because we WANT something to be true, doesn't make it true. Also, I sort of came to really understand the way "magical" things like prophecies, psychics, miracles, and omens REALLY work. It's all based on a very interesting aspect of our brain called patternicity (though I didn't have a name for it at the time.) Pattternicity is just our brains ability to see patterns in things that are in fact just random or coincidences. People think miracles occur, but it's really just random, but their brains see a pattern that isn't there. A psychic randomly spouts out general information that could be true for anyone (check the astrology part of the paper) and your brain sees a pattern where there is none, and says "oh that's me!" or "oh that just happened in my life" when the psychic could have said something as simple as "something bad happened yesterday/tomorrow". Sure, everyday there will be AT LEAST one bad thing that will happen to you, but you see the pattern where there is none. That is patternicity. I am very anti-magical and anti-supersitiious for this reason.

  111. Is living a life with no belief in God really satisfying? Before you answer yes or no, I want you to ignore all previous knowledge and facts you have and think with me here. I’m not trying to condemn anyone but merely trying to imply logic. If God doesn’t exist, what’s the point of life? If we think in an atheistic fashion we can say nothing other than randomness, for the people I know, etc. Every answer you come up with is for a reason that is temporary. So what happens when the world ends? Don’t you think there must be a better explanation for life? Is living knowing you are going to die and that’s it really happiness? If happiness is all you have while you live on earth really true happiness if it ends? Don’t you think happiness should go on forever? What if in the end God is real? Wouldn’t it have been more worth it to believe in a God? I mean atheists have morals such as Christians, the only difference is Christians have a reason. A famous atheist said: the most unsatisfying feeling is being thankful for your life but not knowing who to thank. It’s a like a void in life, seemingly empty. Surely life must be more than that.

  112. Exactly the way I have felt growing up in the bible belt. Thank you for that and yes watch all of their debates with Christians and Muslims. I've seen everyone of them and you learn so much. Also start watching Cosmos.

  113. Honestly, I have gone through the very same questions found in this essay. I wondered how an all powerful loving God would allow bad things to happen to people he supposedly cared about. I came to understand that God expected obedience from his creations to worship him, to have a relationship with them.

    In the beginning everything was perfect, no violence, no stress, no worries, no hatred, no jealousy, ect….. God had given his creations everything they could ever need, and instructed them not to eat from the tree of knowledge of Good and Evil, because God knew that it would corrupt them, This was a test to see if his creations would listen to and trust him or defy him (free will), Both Adam and Eve chose to defy God, and God already knew they would, yet, he allowed them to make their own choice.

    All manner of evil and sin entered the once perfect world that day, and has been handed down through all generations since then. God is a just God and must punish sin, God is also a loving God and does not want us to face that punishment, so he took on flesh, manifested himself in Jesus Christ his only begotten son and took on our sin punishment, so that we could have an escape from that punishment though the atonement of his blood.

    God completed His law that we could never do ourselves, God offered a New Covenant to anyone that accepts Jesus Christ sacrifice and surrenders to him and trust in him to save them. Man however continues to turn their backs on God and defy him at every turn and then wonder why God is not listening to their pleas. God takes care of his own, God answers the prayers of his people (Bornagain believers), God knows our hearts and if we are not sincere God leaves us to our own vain imaginations and self destruction of our souls.

    Those that have ears let them hear.

  114. Mr.Gordon Douglas,first, I hope you find peace in whatever belief you follow. But, to be honest I pray you follow
    A study of Ivan Panin’s 43,000 hand-penned pages of mathematical analysis of the original Greek and Hebrew Bible, would,I believe help in this discussion. Dr. Panin spoke and read several languages fluently, including Greek and Hebrew.
    Plus he was a brilliant scholar, plus a confirmed agnostic. In his many studies, he found there was a mathemmatical relationship that proved the Bible to be true.
    Just some of the examples:
    A Partial Listing of the Phenomenal Features of Sevens Found in Genesis 1

    1 The number of Hebrew words = 7
    2 The number of letters equals 28 (7×4 = 28)
    3 The first 3 Hebrew words translated “In the beginning God created” have 14 letters (7×2 = 14)

    4 The last four Hebrew words “the heavens and the earth” have 14 letters (7×2 = 14)

    5 The fourth and fifth words have 7 letters
    6 The sixth and seventh words have 7 letters
    7 The three key words: God, heaven and earth have 14 letters (7×2 = 14)

    8 The number of letters in the four remaining words is also 14 (7×2 = 14)

    9 The shortest word in the verse is the middle word with 7 letters
    10 The Hebrew numeric value of the first, middle and last letters is 133 (7×19 = 133)

    11 The Hebrew numeric value of first and last letters of all seven words is 1393 (7×199 = 1393)

    This is just a fraction of his findings. With 43,000 pages, he started with Genesis and ended in Revelation. To really make an informed decision, I believe it would behoove anyone to study this, to have ALL of the facts before you. No matter how you feel lead to believe after studying this. Good luck in all of your ventures in the future, you are a very honest and knowledgeable person. I do look forward to your comments after studying this.

    This website answers all your n
    arguments inasmuch as it is consistent with God’s word.
    The issue leading to all of your conclusions is a lack of understanding of God and His purpose. Behind all the disbelief in God is a problem with what the bible teaches especially in the areas of “morality” and all that God requires and then add the error and propangda of religions and the disbelief is no more than misinformation that is “hoped is true by an individual. Those who love truth more than they love what they want to belief can succeed. It is God’s way! It is God’s test. Will you live your way or God’s way? Indeed, it is a perfect test and those who love the truth and are humble will find the truth and live it. God will succeed and receive those He wants for heaven and all the concerns or seemingly difficult or impossible to answer arguments or questions; God can manage these things just as easily as He speaks creation into existence and for some strange reason a person comes to believe God was less than perfect in His plan to achieve his purpose.
    Look to for help

  116. Curious as to what logic in science explains our existence. The big bang? The idea that matter erupted from matter? There is nothing intellectual about that. Science goes against itself by saying matter came from nothing.

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